Landing Fees - Value for Money ?.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The financial logic of kicking GA out of a number of airports seems surprising. I pay knocking on £200/month to park on some plastic reinforced grass, I then pay landing fees (0 marginal cost), support the local maintenance operation (contributing to their ability to pay rent), etc. Why this isn't viewed as good incremental business by the intergalactic spaceports is beyond me.
On the otherhand, the local planners have capped EGLF at something like 25k movements a year. They can sell all 25k movements to heavy business jets so every PA-28 that they let in looses them the ability to handle a G4 - so the poor PA-28 guy is going to pay a fortune (actually is not allowed in). This is a little naive on the planners part as capping the number of flights without specifying the type of aircraft is going to encourage the airport to attract the largest (i.e. biggest environmental impact) aircraft possible. A more sensible policy for the planners might have been to say EGLF can have 15k movements up to 50 tonnes, 15k up to 4 tonnes and 30k less then 2 tonnes. That would have allowed all of the business jet benefit, and a lot of incremental profit (and the income tax, VAT and rates associated with it) on the small end off a fixed cost base (that exists for the big biz jet traffic), while only marginally increasing the envrionmental footprint.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have the oportunity to gather the information prior to our visit and if we are not happy with the cost then go somewhere else.
There are actually some people who fly to the destination because they have something to do in the vicinity, and there would be many more of them if there were GA airports where people need to go.
As mm_flynn points out, most of the costs are fixed so it's plain stupid to exclude extra business.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just been to Le Touquet today. 23 Euro's for a single, and 25 Euro's for the twin that also came with us.
That is totaly reasonable for the full atc facilities and parking for several hours whilst we went to town for some food.
The same twin landed at EGSG twice today and got robbed of £50 for the landing fee and was only there to pick up and drop off pax for around 30 mins each time !!!.
That is totaly reasonable for the full atc facilities and parking for several hours whilst we went to town for some food.
The same twin landed at EGSG twice today and got robbed of £50 for the landing fee and was only there to pick up and drop off pax for around 30 mins each time !!!.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The same twin landed at EGSG twice today and got robbed of £50 for the landing fee and was only there to pick up and drop off pax for around 30 mins each time !!!.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I0540,
I did not mean to sound so assuming and I do realise that some people have business within the area of airfields, I too have on many ocasion used an aircraft to get to a meeting...... Imagine asuming I didn`t..
I agree with you and mm about turning business away, its just daft.
Is it not possible for airfields to appeal to the local authority or beyond to increase the movements of lighter business traffic.
When faced with planning problems with property in the past for eg; not being granted, we have appealed the the Scottish Office and had the planners overuled on several occasions.
A lot of planners are not well enough qualified in their field and quite often contradict each other on the same topic which makes it hard to ever get a straight answer.
Perhaps the answer may be that those running certain airfields just dont have the same enthusiam as we do....
I did not mean to sound so assuming and I do realise that some people have business within the area of airfields, I too have on many ocasion used an aircraft to get to a meeting...... Imagine asuming I didn`t..
I agree with you and mm about turning business away, its just daft.
Is it not possible for airfields to appeal to the local authority or beyond to increase the movements of lighter business traffic.
When faced with planning problems with property in the past for eg; not being granted, we have appealed the the Scottish Office and had the planners overuled on several occasions.
A lot of planners are not well enough qualified in their field and quite often contradict each other on the same topic which makes it hard to ever get a straight answer.
Perhaps the answer may be that those running certain airfields just dont have the same enthusiam as we do....
So the avgas costs a little more
Except that we pay €500 a year for the hangarage for the cub, I can hire a four seat tourer for €126 wet (180 horse DR400) The weather is a lot better, the wine is cheaper, I pay no landing fees at most airfields in the area, we have a nice house with land for the animals for less than the cost of a Birmingham semi, pay far less in tax and have a lot less controlled airspace.
Like I said, why live in UK?
You've answered your own question. At current exchange rates that's about 12.5 cents per litre more than I'm paying in the UK.
Like I said, why live in UK?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing changes, or ever will change, until we do!
Hi Guys,
Over the years I have seen a succession of threads like this, entirely justifiably bemoaning the cost of landing/handling charges, and our exile from so many aerodromes that are now 'international airports' but of course nothing ever happens to change things as a result.
We merely concede that these aerodromes are private businesses and thus can charge whatever they think they can get away with. Planners are ignorant, naive wallies, but they are part of officialdom and 'you can't fight city hall': (actually you can, but that's a part of another story).
So we all go back to sleep again until the next charging scam, wheeze or imposition appears to wake us all up again. Then the whole merrygoround commences all over again and in the end we all wind up asleep once more.
Quite simply until we organise to take action by involving government, in the form of the Office of Fair Trading, or the EU which, I am told, favours the existence of a network of small aerodromes as part of the Community transport network, we shall achieve nothing and the endless repeat of these beefing threads will remain as they are - pointless.
How many of us belong to AOPA? I am sure this question will inspire the usual objections. You know the sort of thing. 'I will never join AOPA until they blah, blah, blah'. 'I will never join AOPA because they are a bunch of blah, blah, blah'. 'I am not a member of AOPA because I'm a blah, blah, blah specialist pilot and hence belong to the blah, blah, blah association instead'. 'I belong to American AOPA, their subs are cheaper'. 'I just can't be bothered'.
But with all its shortcomings, for sheer campaigning AOPA is just about all we've got in the way of a real campaigning organisation. No doubt there are other, no doubt very worthy, organisations but these are all smaller than AOPA and do not have campaigning as a prime activity.
'Sorry to be depressing, but the whole approach of fellow pilots to the landing fee/handling charge, 'don't you dare come to my international airport' milieu in which we all exist is only that - depressing.
'Sorry,
Over the years I have seen a succession of threads like this, entirely justifiably bemoaning the cost of landing/handling charges, and our exile from so many aerodromes that are now 'international airports' but of course nothing ever happens to change things as a result.
We merely concede that these aerodromes are private businesses and thus can charge whatever they think they can get away with. Planners are ignorant, naive wallies, but they are part of officialdom and 'you can't fight city hall': (actually you can, but that's a part of another story).
So we all go back to sleep again until the next charging scam, wheeze or imposition appears to wake us all up again. Then the whole merrygoround commences all over again and in the end we all wind up asleep once more.
Quite simply until we organise to take action by involving government, in the form of the Office of Fair Trading, or the EU which, I am told, favours the existence of a network of small aerodromes as part of the Community transport network, we shall achieve nothing and the endless repeat of these beefing threads will remain as they are - pointless.
How many of us belong to AOPA? I am sure this question will inspire the usual objections. You know the sort of thing. 'I will never join AOPA until they blah, blah, blah'. 'I will never join AOPA because they are a bunch of blah, blah, blah'. 'I am not a member of AOPA because I'm a blah, blah, blah specialist pilot and hence belong to the blah, blah, blah association instead'. 'I belong to American AOPA, their subs are cheaper'. 'I just can't be bothered'.
But with all its shortcomings, for sheer campaigning AOPA is just about all we've got in the way of a real campaigning organisation. No doubt there are other, no doubt very worthy, organisations but these are all smaller than AOPA and do not have campaigning as a prime activity.
'Sorry to be depressing, but the whole approach of fellow pilots to the landing fee/handling charge, 'don't you dare come to my international airport' milieu in which we all exist is only that - depressing.
'Sorry,
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On a roll...
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I repeat something I posted elsewhere....
Why don't we - as a community - pull together & mobilise our energies to do something like the Strasser AOPA campaign ??
That campaign was to waive landing fees & those incidious "handling charges" in the case of a genuine emergency or distress.
So why not an extension of that campaign but focusing on reasonably-priced access (or even access at all....) to a fair distribution of airfields.
Yes, this is a safety issue. I wonder how many people might be tempting to "push on" because such-&-such airfield is GA-unfriendly?? How easy is it now to practice night flying or an instrument approach??
No, the CAA has no remit to interfere with landing fees per se or access to an ILS, but it does have a remit to safeguard safety standards....& that's where the aviation community as a whole comes in, from ATPL's down,
We all know there are numerous regional airports out there who are praying the lo-co's don't go bust anytime soon & yet have acres of spare grass/concrete on which they could easily fit a PA28/C172 or two...
From time to time, the EU does get it very right...where there's a strategy there's a will & as we all know a well-distributed, community-based, accessible network of airfields is an asset to the towns themselves & for the country.
It is indeed a matter of lobbying not griping....we didn't all get airborne by being negative. We have to show ourselves worthy of the right to fly sometimes...
BFA
Why don't we - as a community - pull together & mobilise our energies to do something like the Strasser AOPA campaign ??
That campaign was to waive landing fees & those incidious "handling charges" in the case of a genuine emergency or distress.
So why not an extension of that campaign but focusing on reasonably-priced access (or even access at all....) to a fair distribution of airfields.
Yes, this is a safety issue. I wonder how many people might be tempting to "push on" because such-&-such airfield is GA-unfriendly?? How easy is it now to practice night flying or an instrument approach??
No, the CAA has no remit to interfere with landing fees per se or access to an ILS, but it does have a remit to safeguard safety standards....& that's where the aviation community as a whole comes in, from ATPL's down,
We all know there are numerous regional airports out there who are praying the lo-co's don't go bust anytime soon & yet have acres of spare grass/concrete on which they could easily fit a PA28/C172 or two...
From time to time, the EU does get it very right...where there's a strategy there's a will & as we all know a well-distributed, community-based, accessible network of airfields is an asset to the towns themselves & for the country.
It is indeed a matter of lobbying not griping....we didn't all get airborne by being negative. We have to show ourselves worthy of the right to fly sometimes...
BFA
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“But with all its shortcomings, for sheer campaigning AOPA is just about all we've got in the way of a real campaigning organisation. No doubt there are other, no doubt very worthy, organisations but these are all smaller than AOPA and do not have campaigning as a prime activity.”
I have nothing against AOPA, but let’s have a bit of balance. I have been a member of the LAA campaign team on several issues over the years. The LAA is already twice the size of AOPA UK and is VERY active on a wide range of issues. The vast majority of GA does not need 800m, it is quite happy on grass and there is an entire “alternative” set of grass landing strips (both LAA and BMAA dominated) lots of which do not charge landing fees, but ask for a donation.
IO is quite right, if you HAVE to fly in on business, and you are IFR and need 800m then you need a “big airport” (and put it on expenses), but most of us fly for fun, and we do not want to pay £20 of our own money for landing. Guess what, we do not have to.
Rod1
I have nothing against AOPA, but let’s have a bit of balance. I have been a member of the LAA campaign team on several issues over the years. The LAA is already twice the size of AOPA UK and is VERY active on a wide range of issues. The vast majority of GA does not need 800m, it is quite happy on grass and there is an entire “alternative” set of grass landing strips (both LAA and BMAA dominated) lots of which do not charge landing fees, but ask for a donation.
IO is quite right, if you HAVE to fly in on business, and you are IFR and need 800m then you need a “big airport” (and put it on expenses), but most of us fly for fun, and we do not want to pay £20 of our own money for landing. Guess what, we do not have to.
Rod1
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome to "rip off Britain". Some places wanted to charge me 18-25 quid on one occasion and £50 on another for a 152. Plan your routes wisely is my advice...some places charge next to nothing
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Guys,
Rod1's approach is precisely the kind of attitude I was referring to.
What we need is fair and reasonably priced access to ALL aerodromes, (with perhaps the exception of Heathrow, Gatwick and a small handful of very major regional airports,) not just the ones that he can get his little aeroplane into.
Whether we fly a Luscombe for fun or a Twin Commanche for business is irrelevant.
And Rod1 also seems to be forgetting that of even the aerodromes he does use, there are probably not many that somebody somewhere would not like to cover with houses. If you can't afford to use a large aerodrome, and then lose your little grass aerodrome nearby, then you end up with precisely NOTHING.
As it happens, I'm a member of LAA myself. It's a splendid organisation for what it does. But it is specialised, catering mainly for aeroplane builders and those operating permit types. We need to put our strength behind one organisation that will fight the landing charges, handling, access barred, etc issues right across the board and for EVERYBODY.
Broomstick.
Rod1's approach is precisely the kind of attitude I was referring to.
What we need is fair and reasonably priced access to ALL aerodromes, (with perhaps the exception of Heathrow, Gatwick and a small handful of very major regional airports,) not just the ones that he can get his little aeroplane into.
Whether we fly a Luscombe for fun or a Twin Commanche for business is irrelevant.
And Rod1 also seems to be forgetting that of even the aerodromes he does use, there are probably not many that somebody somewhere would not like to cover with houses. If you can't afford to use a large aerodrome, and then lose your little grass aerodrome nearby, then you end up with precisely NOTHING.
As it happens, I'm a member of LAA myself. It's a splendid organisation for what it does. But it is specialised, catering mainly for aeroplane builders and those operating permit types. We need to put our strength behind one organisation that will fight the landing charges, handling, access barred, etc issues right across the board and for EVERYBODY.
Broomstick.
Last edited by BroomstickPilot; 23rd Apr 2008 at 05:49. Reason: Further thought
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: London, Berlin, Bucharest
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
went to Bembridge airfield the other week. nice place to visit although all the pubs near by close realy early (dont worry- just wanted some lunch and not the liquid type). however as with many things this year, the landing fee has crept up. although it is still a good price, i remember just a few months ago flying into there and paying 5 pounds. now up to 7.50.
with the average price being about 10, i do believe that should realy be the highest it should go. ive heard of some airfields offering free landing if you buy a leg or lamb (apparently farmed on the airfield) and others offering free landing on buying gas. this is a good way to start dropping the cost and hopefully start seeing some more good ideas coming into play.
if your a pilot like me trying to do your hours building any cost saving will help. at the end of the day, it gets realy dull just flying around your local area or doing circuts. hour building sould be fun and hopefully the many airports around the UK will clock onto this and maybe help us out by giving us a student rate? this way we are making savings by flying into there but at the same time they are promoting more aircrafts flying in. it all boils down to the elasticity of demand.
in the time being, any one got any suggestions for places to visit in the bottom half of england? (manchester and below??)
with the average price being about 10, i do believe that should realy be the highest it should go. ive heard of some airfields offering free landing if you buy a leg or lamb (apparently farmed on the airfield) and others offering free landing on buying gas. this is a good way to start dropping the cost and hopefully start seeing some more good ideas coming into play.
if your a pilot like me trying to do your hours building any cost saving will help. at the end of the day, it gets realy dull just flying around your local area or doing circuts. hour building sould be fun and hopefully the many airports around the UK will clock onto this and maybe help us out by giving us a student rate? this way we are making savings by flying into there but at the same time they are promoting more aircrafts flying in. it all boils down to the elasticity of demand.
in the time being, any one got any suggestions for places to visit in the bottom half of england? (manchester and below??)
