Internet flight plan filing coming soon
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FlyUK - I appreciate that you're one of the 'team' involved in this project, and so you are bound to big-up the capabilities, benefits etc of signing up for it, but, for the benefit of myself and all our fellow interested readers here on pprune, just to clarify - 'specialists' in what exactly? Your new AFPEx system, or actual hands-on advice, knowledge and skills in flight planning, addressing, etc etc.? Have your 'specialists' the same level of training, knowledge and experience in these matters as the staff in the Heathrow FBU, for example? And can the Heathrow FBU staff interrogate the AFPEx system in order to assist me if I cannot get the answers or advice I need from one of your 'specialists'?
I need to know that when I have a problem, I'm going to be able to talk to, or ask somebody for help and advice - and not just receive a referral to yet another website in order to sort it out for myself. The lack of clear and concise answers from you, or anybody else allied to this project, gives me cause to doubt the claims of how good its going to be.
At the moment, the service that Heathrow FBU provides can cover most, if not all, flight planning requirements. If this human-interactive element is lost by using AFPEx, and most importantly,if NATS is expecting AFPEx to completely replace Heathrow FBU and all other NATS ATSUs, and is promoting it as such, then I do not see this as a positive step at all.
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FLYUK73 - well done for answering questions on here. That is a major move forward.
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Pelagic, you seem to be condemning the system without having even tried it! Why not wait until it goes live and reserve judgement.
In the meantime, have a look HERE and click on the "getting started guide". Maybe it will help to put your mind at rest.
In the meantime, have a look HERE and click on the "getting started guide". Maybe it will help to put your mind at rest.
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I've got a feeling there are one or two NATS union reps posting here.
Everybody else would welcome progress.
The whole "private IFR" game in Europe is really crap at present. We have to scrape around various websites (nearly all unofficial ones; not that that matters; the UK Met Office has absolutely zero monopoly on accuracy) to get weather, we have to make do with a half cripped weather radar feed (because the Met Offices treat the data as a valuable commercial product (never mind that it was produced with taxpayer money), we don't get any means of generating Eurocontrol airways routings (other than one hobbyist website which happens to work most of the time) even though Eurocontrol have an in-house tool for doing it, we get mandatory Mode S without anybody providing US-style traffic info on the backchannel, and we are living under a constant threat of being banned from this and banned from that. So an online flight plan filing website is very welcome.
They just need to add an airways autoroute feature
Then, quite a lot of people would PAY for the site.
Everybody else would welcome progress.
The whole "private IFR" game in Europe is really crap at present. We have to scrape around various websites (nearly all unofficial ones; not that that matters; the UK Met Office has absolutely zero monopoly on accuracy) to get weather, we have to make do with a half cripped weather radar feed (because the Met Offices treat the data as a valuable commercial product (never mind that it was produced with taxpayer money), we don't get any means of generating Eurocontrol airways routings (other than one hobbyist website which happens to work most of the time) even though Eurocontrol have an in-house tool for doing it, we get mandatory Mode S without anybody providing US-style traffic info on the backchannel, and we are living under a constant threat of being banned from this and banned from that. So an online flight plan filing website is very welcome.
They just need to add an airways autoroute feature
Then, quite a lot of people would PAY for the site.
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IO540,
NOT a union rep, and I welcome progress. However I did 15 years working in Flow management, Flight plan Reception and FBU. My post merely reflected that when the FBU'S close , the average PPL flying on a sunday will HAVE to file his plan on the internet. Having flown Citations, PA34, PA46 AND PA44 aircraft IFR and filed from a hotel room on the phone I can vouch from BOTH sides how usefull it is just to pick up the phone. IFPS reroute accepted would enable refiles to be done without having to contact me , and if I didn't like it I Phoned CFMU/IFPS. Simple.
The internet is a step forward but I still firmly believe that the loss of the NATS FBU's will be tragic.
NOT a union rep, and I welcome progress. However I did 15 years working in Flow management, Flight plan Reception and FBU. My post merely reflected that when the FBU'S close , the average PPL flying on a sunday will HAVE to file his plan on the internet. Having flown Citations, PA34, PA46 AND PA44 aircraft IFR and filed from a hotel room on the phone I can vouch from BOTH sides how usefull it is just to pick up the phone. IFPS reroute accepted would enable refiles to be done without having to contact me , and if I didn't like it I Phoned CFMU/IFPS. Simple.
The internet is a step forward but I still firmly believe that the loss of the NATS FBU's will be tragic.
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Autothrottle
Fair enough. But can you explain (I really don't understand this) how PPLs file flight plans at present? What route does the FP take?
I am sure that very few "PPLs" fax to Heathrow. The average PPL today doesn't have easy access to a fax.
The vast majority of UK PPLs never file a flight plan because they don't fly abroad.
I think most of the remainder file flight plans via their tower. What do you say will happen to that facility? If the tower used to fax it to Heathrow and cannot anymore, presumably the staff there will have signed up to the new NATS facility as a corporate member, and will carry on as before.
Those who have the initiative to fax to Heathrow (or have to because they are flying abroad from a non-towered field) can certainly use a website. For most people, faxing is a PITA because they have to find a physical fax machine. To a small group, myself included, it's all a piece of cake because there is GSM fax (from a laptop) and email2fax gateways.
Unfortunately, few UK VFR-only PPLs do great long European trips - it's possible (I've done lots of them, all the way down the Greece) but it's a messy process under VFR. And if Heathrow accepts a flight plan from say Germany to Belgium, that is very nice of them but I think few pilots would be expecting it to work.
Most UK PPLs pop over to France (LTQ etc) and for that you don't need much flight planning help. In fact if the FP gets lost, nobody cares because a) nobody cares much about VFR traffic anyway and b) LTQ is too busy to care; they just let you land and they are happy.
The private IFR group is different. These people are the ones who potentially need assistance, but they have already climbed the massive ladder to getting an IR and logging onto a website is no big deal. What they need is perhaps CFMU-acceptable routing assistance (CFMU) because that is the real gotcha these days, but I don't think any AIS unit offers that. The 'reroute accepted' remark is processed by Eurocontrol, not by the unit filing the FP. And occassionally Eurocontrol wash their hands of amending the route... in that case one has to phone up the Eurocontrol desk on one of the two public numbers.
But I have written all this before... I just don't get the problem. And NATS will have somebody on this site who can be phoned and do basic FP manipulation. I doubt they will be developing IFR routings either - the tools for that are in Brussels.
Fair enough. But can you explain (I really don't understand this) how PPLs file flight plans at present? What route does the FP take?
I am sure that very few "PPLs" fax to Heathrow. The average PPL today doesn't have easy access to a fax.
The vast majority of UK PPLs never file a flight plan because they don't fly abroad.
I think most of the remainder file flight plans via their tower. What do you say will happen to that facility? If the tower used to fax it to Heathrow and cannot anymore, presumably the staff there will have signed up to the new NATS facility as a corporate member, and will carry on as before.
Those who have the initiative to fax to Heathrow (or have to because they are flying abroad from a non-towered field) can certainly use a website. For most people, faxing is a PITA because they have to find a physical fax machine. To a small group, myself included, it's all a piece of cake because there is GSM fax (from a laptop) and email2fax gateways.
Unfortunately, few UK VFR-only PPLs do great long European trips - it's possible (I've done lots of them, all the way down the Greece) but it's a messy process under VFR. And if Heathrow accepts a flight plan from say Germany to Belgium, that is very nice of them but I think few pilots would be expecting it to work.
Most UK PPLs pop over to France (LTQ etc) and for that you don't need much flight planning help. In fact if the FP gets lost, nobody cares because a) nobody cares much about VFR traffic anyway and b) LTQ is too busy to care; they just let you land and they are happy.
The private IFR group is different. These people are the ones who potentially need assistance, but they have already climbed the massive ladder to getting an IR and logging onto a website is no big deal. What they need is perhaps CFMU-acceptable routing assistance (CFMU) because that is the real gotcha these days, but I don't think any AIS unit offers that. The 'reroute accepted' remark is processed by Eurocontrol, not by the unit filing the FP. And occassionally Eurocontrol wash their hands of amending the route... in that case one has to phone up the Eurocontrol desk on one of the two public numbers.
But I have written all this before... I just don't get the problem. And NATS will have somebody on this site who can be phoned and do basic FP manipulation. I doubt they will be developing IFR routings either - the tools for that are in Brussels.
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"Most UK PPLs pop over to France (LTQ etc) and for that you don't need much flight planning help. In fact if the FP gets lost, nobody cares because a) nobody cares much about VFR traffic anyway and b) LTQ is too busy to care; they just let you land and they are happy."
That statement just shows a total ignorance of the system - I just hope you never ditch mid channel if you believe your statements......
That statement just shows a total ignorance of the system - I just hope you never ditch mid channel if you believe your statements......
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Like I said 3500 flight plans handled by Heathrow FBU alone each month from april to september. I don't work in an FBU anymore, but I know for a fact that there are still large numbers filing over the phone, faxing from home or departure aerodrome or recieving via AFTN from those airfields equiped with AFTN.
Look , I don't disagree that this is a step in the right direction and in some ways it is well overdue, but we need to remember one thing here. SAFETY. I disagree hugely with your satements about VFR flight plans. Of the 3500 plans handled each month at least half are PPL VFR flight plans. These are kept for 6 months and I can remember on more than one occasion when BREST, PARIS, AMSTERDAM, BRUSSELS, SHANNON etc have all requested supplementory Information as Alerting Action had started. Routes on VFR plans ARE important, ANYONE READING THIS WHO FILES VFR-GIVE A GOOD NUMBER OF WAYPOINTS. If , and I remember having to do this , we have to give SAR authorities waypoints, at least it is on the FPL. FBU staff will trace the route and contact ALL aerodromes near the route to try and trace the aircraft in question. More often than not...they have diverted to an airfield for a variety of reasons, and have forgotten to tell anyone. But at least we can advise the relevant authorities.
I agree with the subject of Private or small carrier IFR flight planning facilities...I should know.
MOST IMPORTANTLY-VFR FPL's
These PLANS ARE LOOKED AT( By security Services too). This is SAFETY.
They ARE NOT thrown away. Or DISCARDED .
Look , I don't disagree that this is a step in the right direction and in some ways it is well overdue, but we need to remember one thing here. SAFETY. I disagree hugely with your satements about VFR flight plans. Of the 3500 plans handled each month at least half are PPL VFR flight plans. These are kept for 6 months and I can remember on more than one occasion when BREST, PARIS, AMSTERDAM, BRUSSELS, SHANNON etc have all requested supplementory Information as Alerting Action had started. Routes on VFR plans ARE important, ANYONE READING THIS WHO FILES VFR-GIVE A GOOD NUMBER OF WAYPOINTS. If , and I remember having to do this , we have to give SAR authorities waypoints, at least it is on the FPL. FBU staff will trace the route and contact ALL aerodromes near the route to try and trace the aircraft in question. More often than not...they have diverted to an airfield for a variety of reasons, and have forgotten to tell anyone. But at least we can advise the relevant authorities.
I agree with the subject of Private or small carrier IFR flight planning facilities...I should know.
MOST IMPORTANTLY-VFR FPL's
These PLANS ARE LOOKED AT( By security Services too). This is SAFETY.
They ARE NOT thrown away. Or DISCARDED .
Our specialist ATSAs will be able to answer your queries about the system, where to find information on the system about routing and addressing and any other APFEx related queries.
I'm reasonably literate when it comes to this sort of stuff, and I can get my head round an FPL, DLA and CHG and even the ATFM set (SMM, REA, SPA, SRJ, FCM, RJT, SWM, RFI) because they're documented by CFMU. But I'm not sure I'd know if and when I should send a DEP, ARR, CPL, EST, CDN, RCF, SPL ... Is that something I'm going to need to understand if I use AFPEx?
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"Pelagic, you seem to be condemning the system without having even tried it! Why not wait until it goes live and reserve judgement."
TB
I have looked at whats on the AFPEx webpage. I am concerned that a fully automated system (or one manned by non-experienced staff) may just let me down when I need it most.
I would prefer to see AFPEx as an addition to the services which NATS offers (via the FBUs), rather than a moneysaving replacement, which I think is the real reason for its creation.
IO540
"Firstly, I was not aware that NATS even offered a "flight planning service". Where is this service??"
"Secondly, one needs to ask what function does the human element serve,..."
"In VFR, nobody looks at the filed route anyway, man or computer"
"And with the crap which pilots routinely put on VFR flight plans, units like Heathrow aren't going to type them in in a hurry."
"What old system? Can you elaborate on the exact job loss problem?"
"I know lots of people still fax flight plans to say Heathrow and it's very nice of the people there to accept them and type them into the system, but they have never guaranteed to accept flight plans from anywhere to anywhere (outside the UK)."
"Is the FBU staffing (i.e. union opposition) the reason why it has taken so long to get this function online?"
Having read over all your comments in the two threads, I would second what 25check has just written, and I would also add that for someone who has "never had a need to use them", you are very quick to judge/dismiss the efforts and services - yes, services - which the Heathrow FBU supplies.
Despite what you have to say about your knowledge of flight planning issues in general, it would appear that what you know about NATS and the Heathrow FBU could be written on the back of a stamp with a whitewash brush.
forgot to say - I'm not a union rep either.
TB
I have looked at whats on the AFPEx webpage. I am concerned that a fully automated system (or one manned by non-experienced staff) may just let me down when I need it most.
I would prefer to see AFPEx as an addition to the services which NATS offers (via the FBUs), rather than a moneysaving replacement, which I think is the real reason for its creation.
IO540
"Firstly, I was not aware that NATS even offered a "flight planning service". Where is this service??"
"Secondly, one needs to ask what function does the human element serve,..."
"In VFR, nobody looks at the filed route anyway, man or computer"
"And with the crap which pilots routinely put on VFR flight plans, units like Heathrow aren't going to type them in in a hurry."
"What old system? Can you elaborate on the exact job loss problem?"
"I know lots of people still fax flight plans to say Heathrow and it's very nice of the people there to accept them and type them into the system, but they have never guaranteed to accept flight plans from anywhere to anywhere (outside the UK)."
"Is the FBU staffing (i.e. union opposition) the reason why it has taken so long to get this function online?"
Having read over all your comments in the two threads, I would second what 25check has just written, and I would also add that for someone who has "never had a need to use them", you are very quick to judge/dismiss the efforts and services - yes, services - which the Heathrow FBU supplies.
Despite what you have to say about your knowledge of flight planning issues in general, it would appear that what you know about NATS and the Heathrow FBU could be written on the back of a stamp with a whitewash brush.
forgot to say - I'm not a union rep either.
Last edited by pelagic; 20th Mar 2008 at 23:49.
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I don't doubt that if one is going to file a VFR flight plan then one should put one's intended route on it correctly, just in case one has an accident.
What this has to do with preserving the workload at the Heathrow fax filing facility, I still haven't worked out
I agree. A pilot does not need to know the internals of the system.
What this has to do with preserving the workload at the Heathrow fax filing facility, I still haven't worked out
what you know about NATS and the Heathrow FBU could be written on the back of a stamp with a whitewash brush
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"I don't doubt that if one is going to file a VFR flight plan then one should put one's intended route on it correctly, just in case one has an accident.
What this has to do with preserving the workload at the Heathrow fax filing facility, I still haven't worked out"
Its not just about putting an accurate and correct route on your FPL - its about all the associated messaging tasks, plus addressing, which have to be undertaken by the user rather than the service provider.
You can fax a plan to Heathrow, and they'll check and address it for you, forward it via AFTN or fax, or even phone somebody directly if there's a need to - all for free. They will also handle all your associated messaging tasks, refiles, cancellations, div arrivals etc on receipt of a call. Plus, if we mere mortals, (who do not possess the vast aviation knowledge and experience of somebody like yourself), want to ask a question, we can pick up the phone and speak directly to somebody who will try to provide an answer for us - not just refer us to the AFPEx user guide webpage, and then leave us to it.
Not everybody wants to be a website user - some of us actually prefer the existing method. At least we know it works.
FlyUK73 - is AFPEx designed to work alongside the current existing service (the FBUs) ?
What this has to do with preserving the workload at the Heathrow fax filing facility, I still haven't worked out"
Its not just about putting an accurate and correct route on your FPL - its about all the associated messaging tasks, plus addressing, which have to be undertaken by the user rather than the service provider.
You can fax a plan to Heathrow, and they'll check and address it for you, forward it via AFTN or fax, or even phone somebody directly if there's a need to - all for free. They will also handle all your associated messaging tasks, refiles, cancellations, div arrivals etc on receipt of a call. Plus, if we mere mortals, (who do not possess the vast aviation knowledge and experience of somebody like yourself), want to ask a question, we can pick up the phone and speak directly to somebody who will try to provide an answer for us - not just refer us to the AFPEx user guide webpage, and then leave us to it.
Not everybody wants to be a website user - some of us actually prefer the existing method. At least we know it works.
FlyUK73 - is AFPEx designed to work alongside the current existing service (the FBUs) ?
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maybe I should rephrase it - will we still be able to choose between AFPEx and the FBUs?
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IO540 SAYS
"I agree. A pilot does not need to know the internals of the system"
OH DEAR.
Sir I notice that previously you asked what the 700 hour route to CPL/IR was.
It seems you may be new to all this and if the JAA way of doing things leads to this ARROGANT blinkered attitude then it is indeed a sorry state of affairs.
This is a question of AIRMANSHIP. An understanding of the workings of ATC helps peripheral understanding.
IO540 PM me and I will arrange a visit to Heathrow for you, so we can help you....its up to you.
"I agree. A pilot does not need to know the internals of the system"
OH DEAR.
Sir I notice that previously you asked what the 700 hour route to CPL/IR was.
It seems you may be new to all this and if the JAA way of doing things leads to this ARROGANT blinkered attitude then it is indeed a sorry state of affairs.
This is a question of AIRMANSHIP. An understanding of the workings of ATC helps peripheral understanding.
IO540 PM me and I will arrange a visit to Heathrow for you, so we can help you....its up to you.
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I have a CPL/IR, thank you, and while a visit to Heathrow would no doubt be interesting, I won't be going for your somewhat tongue in cheek invitation
I barely recall asking the 700hr question; it was probably when researching the history of the CAA IR options in years gone by. Not sure what the relevance is to this.
I barely recall asking the 700hr question; it was probably when researching the history of the CAA IR options in years gone by. Not sure what the relevance is to this.
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"Maybe you should ring the FBU and ask, they are there 24/7 aren't they?"
Another concise reply.
I have already done what you suggested, and spoke to somebody I know who works for NATS, primarily because I want to know whether my concerns about the new system are valid or groundless. I asked the same questions as I have asked on here, including some technical questions. The information I received would indicate that, as a member of the AFPEx team, you are either being kept in the dark, or far more likely, you do not want to discuss on here what is really going on. I also expect that, for the same reasons, anybody from NATS FBUs will not want to discuss this on here either - company politics, and all that.
With regard to having a new and useful tool being made available to the GA community, the introduction of AFPEx will be very welcome. However, with regard to how the new system will interact with the existing arrangements
, I can now see why you are reluctant to respond to my enquiry.
Maybe you should consider a career as a politician?
Another concise reply.
I have already done what you suggested, and spoke to somebody I know who works for NATS, primarily because I want to know whether my concerns about the new system are valid or groundless. I asked the same questions as I have asked on here, including some technical questions. The information I received would indicate that, as a member of the AFPEx team, you are either being kept in the dark, or far more likely, you do not want to discuss on here what is really going on. I also expect that, for the same reasons, anybody from NATS FBUs will not want to discuss this on here either - company politics, and all that.
With regard to having a new and useful tool being made available to the GA community, the introduction of AFPEx will be very welcome. However, with regard to how the new system will interact with the existing arrangements
, I can now see why you are reluctant to respond to my enquiry. Maybe you should consider a career as a politician?