Flying in gusty winds

[PompeyPaul]

Hello,

If you have gusty conditions, but it's straight down the runway, do you still fly ? Let's say 240/10G20 would you take off from runway 24 ?

Also would you perform a flapless landing ? I'm thinking PA28 here.

[SkyHawk-N]

I'd certainly fly. Not sure about flapless, I'd use 10 or 20 degrees depending on the runway. I add about 50% of the gust speed to my approach speed and will be prepared for input of power if required.

[airmuster]

Pompey Paul

No problems in the Cherokee or any other "plane"

Check runway length for flapless though.

One consideration........ how many hours and hours on type do you have?

10 - 20 knots is normal here.

[PompeyPaul]

Me

I have 60 hours, 58 of which are on type and am fairly current (5 hours flown in last 30 days).

As I move away from my flight school I find myself having to make more decisions, and tomorrow is forecast to be gusty.

On reflection, if it does turn out to be gusty, I think I'll leave it.

[FullyFlapped]

I have 60 hours, 58 of which are on type and am fairly current (5 hours flown in last 30 days).

As I move away from my flight school I find myself having to make more decisions, and tomorrow is forecast to be gusty.

On reflection, if it does turn out to be gusty, I think I'll leave it.

... and on the face of it, that shows common sense and good airmanship.

However, I'll guarantee you two things. Firstly, when you've a few more hours under your belt, you won't be making the same decision (I'm talking of winds as you describe in your first post) : and secondly, the only way to get to that position is through experience.

Therefore, perhaps a better bet would be to book an instructor for tomorrow, and have a look at these conditions? There's nothing like real world experience, and if you "get lucky" you'll then know what it feels like as well as what to do about it.

Anytime now, the usual gaggle of "hell boy, that ain't wind where ah cum from, mah dawg meks more wind then thayut" idiots will show up ... ignore them. You've made a good call, and they're mostly full of p*ss and 270/45G70 anyway !

[Johnm]

Go flying with an instructor in some gusty winds to build up confidence. Do cross winds as well if you can.

I'll happily fly my Archer in winds up to about 35kts after that it's quicker by car

[BlueRobin]

Our SOP for qualified pilots in the Warrior is 35 knots inc the gust, plus no more than 17 knots crosswind again inc the gust.

There's no valid reason imho to reduce flap.

[SkyHawk-N]

There's no valid reason imho to reduce flap.

You should really try and do what the POH says. I don't have a PA-28 POH to hand but my Cessna one recommends less flap in gusty conditions. I suppose there is more risk of ballooning(?), just a guess. I've also heard the reason is that there is more chance of a go-around in gusty conditions and that is safer with less flap, again I don't know how true this is. Using less flap works for me.

Have a look at the PA-28 POH and see what that says.

[BackPacker]

Have a look at the PA-28 POH and see what that says.

This is from the PA-28-161 Cadet:

In high wind conditions, particularly in strong crosswinds, it may be desirable to approach the ground at higher than normal speeds with partial or no flaps.

Helpful, not?

[Zulu Alpha]

Generally landing in a strong/gusting wind is no more difficult than in still conditions if it is down the runway.

The headwind reduces your groundspeed so things happen more slowly and your ground roll is much less.

Gusting conditions do make the aircraft rock about a bit hence the suggestion about adding 10kts and only 2 stages of flap (Assuming you have 3). This will make the ailerons more effective.

I think it is good to practice flying in these conditions, talk to your instructor first or take an instructor with you if unsure, or just do circuits at your home base, don't worry about going around if you are not happy.

I'm sure you will find that you manage just fine and the experience will expand your envelope. The wind will often be unfriendly so mastering it will stand you in good stead for the future.

ZA

[jamestkirk]

reduced flap

Remember in gusty conditions, you may encounter winshear. If that windshear is of the minus speed value, flaps may be a good idea. This is due the the reduction in stall speed giving you a larger margin for error. This stuff I am sure you know.

But, extending flaps reduces you stability in the lateral plane. It is alot easier for a gust of wind to displace the aircraft in roll with 40 degrees of flap, than zero degrees. As you lower the flaps, the C of G moves rearwards and inwards (towards the root). If you held a ruler at each end and asked someone to try and move it at the tips, it would be alot more difficult than holding the ruler in the centre and asking the same. It's the same principle with the wing.

I used to get my students to fly a crosswind/gusty approach with full flap and the next circuit with zero to experience the difference in stability. (dual of course, before someone pipes up).

Thats the reason that in a crosswind and especially if its gusty that you approach a little faster with a lower flap setting. Although, some aircraft may vary and in such things as the Europa you do not have a flap choice.

In the wind conditions you gave, remember to add you gust factor to the approach speed. Its half the gust factor so add 5 knots. Its a rule of thumb but useful.Forgive me if you already know that.

[PompeyPaul]

Thanks for all of the replies

As it turned out it was a lovely day for flying, CAVOK with some wind, but nothing outrageous. None of the TAFs mentioned gusting conditions, but I was slightly nervous that Farnborough sounded quiet (did all of those pilots know something I didn't ?). Anyway, it was a lovely brimble out and about.

Athough one of my 2 non-flying pax said they were suprised how easy flying was, it looked like I was driving a bus!

[DFC]

None of the TAFs mentioned gusting conditions, but I was slightly nervous that Farnborough sounded quiet

Don't forget that a wind from 230 at 15 knots gusting to 24 knots will be reported in METAR and forecasted in the TAF as;

23015Kts

The gust is only mentioned when it reaches 10 knots above the average.

Thus you can have the windspeed varying from 0 to 24 knots on a regular basis but provided the mean wind is 15Kt then it is simply 15Kt that is reported.

Now looking at directional variation, that is only reported when the variation is 60 degrees or more.

So with a wind of 23015Kt could actually be a wind that is 21005Kt one second and 25024Kt the next.

Overall the weather can change quite a lot without the requirements for a new TAF to be issued or for a special report. Thus, there is no substitute for simply looking out the window and ensuring that you are taking everything into account and crosschecking what is expected when pilot in command of the flight and not passing control of the operation to the metman in a nice warm office.

Even the oldest grey-haired B747 Captain's still check the windsock before rolling or landing (when it is visible!).

Regards,

DFC

[PompeyPaul]

Thanks DFC

Thanks DFC, I didn't realise that was the case. I did check the wind scok before departure, and also on return, and whilst it was moving a little, it wasn't flailing around.

The thing that made me feel better is as I walked out to aircraft @ 13:30 (gusting by the Met office was reported @ 12:00) althougb it wasn't light & variable I couldn't feel anything significant on my face.

I agree, there is nothing quite like being stood in the field to see the weather, it's much better than a METAR.

Still, why was Farnborough so quiet today ?

[Zulu Alpha]

I agree with the last two posts. When I had 50-200 hrs I often cancelled a booking based on the forecast. As often as not I would then sit at home watching a clear blue sky with hardly any wind as the forecast had been pessimistic.

I then learnt to keep bookings and to go to the airfield to see what the real conditions were like. I also found a couple of airfields that were at a significant angle to my home base. I could then use them for crosswind practice with the home base as an into wind 'get out of jail free' card.

This showed me that with practice and good technique it was easy to fly up to the specified xwind limit. This opened up many flying days that I would previously have cancelled.

I would encourage any low hours pilot to explore their xwind limits, xwinds really are not that difficult.

ZA

[scooter boy]

Most important question to ask is - do I really need to go flying today?

If you are just flying for pleasure then is there any point in putting yourself (and more so your passengers) through the stress of gusty winds (and it can be stressful even when they are coming right down the runway as they can cause sever shear and ballooning of the aircraft on the roundout and lead to far from perfect landings).

50% of accidents were caused by "strong winds" in data presented at the last Met for Aviators course last week. More likely that you will break the aircraft than yourself but why do it if you feel uncomfortable about it?

The Bravado Brigade who claim to be immune to the effects of strong and/or gusty winds are either liars or severely lacking in insight.

SB

[John Farley]

PP

Certainly don't Cx on the basis of a forecast wind (forecast low cloud, rain or poor viz would be another matter)

However if when you see the windsock and are not entirely confident that the trip will be inside your previous experience - but still feel up to giving it a try - then I suggest it would be sensible (at your level of overall experience) to say to your pax "looking at the sock the wind is a bit lumpy today so you sit tight (in the clubouse/car) while I do a quick circuit and check it out - if it is fine I will be back in a mo to collect you if it is not we can leave it for today and you can buy me a beer at xxx."

JF

[Zulu Alpha]

If you are just flying for pleasure then is there any point in putting yourself (and more so your passengers) through the stress of gusty winds (and it can be stressful even when they are coming right down the runway as they can cause sever shear and ballooning of the aircraft on the roundout and lead to far from perfect landings).

I would agree if all you want to do is a local circuit every few weeks. However, if you want to go somewhere further afield then there is always the possibility that the wind may be stronger and unhelpfully aligned than forecast. Much better to have practiced this than have to deal with it for the first time at a strange airfield. I'm not being gung ho, if you actually want to use your licence to go places then learning how to deal with wind is important.

Passengers are a different matter.Often their tolerance of bumps and turbulence is less than the pilots. I don't take people for rides if I think they won't enjoy it

ZA

[HR200]

At Leeds Bradford I have regularly taken a Robin 200 up at 300/20G27KT, the runway is 14/32.

I love xWind landings, they challenge you so you don't become lazy on the final approach.

At LBA, xWind is usual.

[Islander2]

if you actually want to use your licence to go places then learning how to deal with wind is important

Absolutely right, that foreign food can play havoc!