Kent weekend
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Kent weekend
Last time I posted on a similar subject was last year after an extended hold into a very busy LFAT. Yesterday saw lots GA flying , training and pleasure trips and I spent much of the day above Kent, listening to some excellent ATC/ AFIS/AG ,and some appalling RT and basic airmanship.
A few examples:
Not planning even at a basic level. Yes there is an ATIS at...., and it does help if you listen prior to the ATC call. Not knowing airfield procedures and taxi positions and directions. Asking where the the run up point is. All of this is on the airfield plate. Unable to comply with the local departure re noise or in one case to avoid parachutes! Not listening out after departure for an ATC or FIS call before a frequency change.
Prior to arrival, not listening for local traffic and making your first call brief but accurate. Not complying with local joining procedures, calling downwind somewhere between Kent and Sussex and not confirming a landing clearance to ATC.
I could go on. During your PPL training an instructor spent a lot of time and your money turning you into a half decent pilot, why not try and keep and improve on that standard?
Comments welcome, and if I post this next year, I will probably be wearing jodphurs and teaching at Redhill, safe flying!
A few examples:
Not planning even at a basic level. Yes there is an ATIS at...., and it does help if you listen prior to the ATC call. Not knowing airfield procedures and taxi positions and directions. Asking where the the run up point is. All of this is on the airfield plate. Unable to comply with the local departure re noise or in one case to avoid parachutes! Not listening out after departure for an ATC or FIS call before a frequency change.
Prior to arrival, not listening for local traffic and making your first call brief but accurate. Not complying with local joining procedures, calling downwind somewhere between Kent and Sussex and not confirming a landing clearance to ATC.
I could go on. During your PPL training an instructor spent a lot of time and your money turning you into a half decent pilot, why not try and keep and improve on that standard?
Comments welcome, and if I post this next year, I will probably be wearing jodphurs and teaching at Redhill, safe flying!
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Asking where the the run up point is.
As for the others, who knows?
The biggest problem I hear at the moment, is pilots not reading back the type of service that they are receiving i.e. RIS, RAS or FIS
For example:
ATC: G-CD Runway 23 in use, left hand circuit, QFE 1002, flight information service report field in sight.
Aircraft: Runway 23 left hand 1002 and wilco G-CD
ATC: G-CD that's a FIS
Aircraft: Roger, G-CD
At this point ATC normally give up.
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Point taken about the run up area, but here are a few more...
"line up and wait after the landing...", instead of "after the landing aircraft, line up and wait"
Not reading a chart and flying at FL 075 instead of below FL055, and avoiding contolled airspace!
Trying to be too quick and smart and gabbling the inital message a la how they perceive airline ops. Remember someone has to listen absorb and pick up the right coloured ATC strip.
Flying aeros close to a busy airfield without even a courtesy call.
Above is not exhaustive but I think the basic problem is lack of capacity. The winter is over and everyone is desperate to fly. Why not stick to a few circuits or the local area on that first day? I often hear a tremendous sigh of relief after landing and not having made too many cock ups. Is that the way we finish work in our daily lives? And what would happen if you had a real emergency? How often do you practice PFL's?
"line up and wait after the landing...", instead of "after the landing aircraft, line up and wait"
Not reading a chart and flying at FL 075 instead of below FL055, and avoiding contolled airspace!
Trying to be too quick and smart and gabbling the inital message a la how they perceive airline ops. Remember someone has to listen absorb and pick up the right coloured ATC strip.
Flying aeros close to a busy airfield without even a courtesy call.
Above is not exhaustive but I think the basic problem is lack of capacity. The winter is over and everyone is desperate to fly. Why not stick to a few circuits or the local area on that first day? I often hear a tremendous sigh of relief after landing and not having made too many cock ups. Is that the way we finish work in our daily lives? And what would happen if you had a real emergency? How often do you practice PFL's?
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Tigerbatics,
It's not pedantic nonsense to comply with the ANO/ANR, to plan properly, to use Cap 413 as an RT standard and comply with local airfield procedures etc.
One of the real benefits of JAR was the introduction of the "dual flight with an instructor", often exposing just how bad and casual a pilot could become without falling out of the air. And how long has JAR been with us? And yes ,there are still pilots that don't understand the renewal/ revalidation rules. Finally, is it pedantic to read AIC's, attend CAA safety evenings, carry out accurate W/Balance and field performance calculations? Is it sensible to give a call to a nearby airfield before carrying out a high energy aero session?
It's not pedantic nonsense to comply with the ANO/ANR, to plan properly, to use Cap 413 as an RT standard and comply with local airfield procedures etc.
One of the real benefits of JAR was the introduction of the "dual flight with an instructor", often exposing just how bad and casual a pilot could become without falling out of the air. And how long has JAR been with us? And yes ,there are still pilots that don't understand the renewal/ revalidation rules. Finally, is it pedantic to read AIC's, attend CAA safety evenings, carry out accurate W/Balance and field performance calculations? Is it sensible to give a call to a nearby airfield before carrying out a high energy aero session?
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"line up and wait after the landing...", instead of "after the landing aircraft, line up and wait"
How is a chap supposed to enjoy himself when even students are let loose on the radio ... !
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Fly non-radio it is by far the best way and you do not have to put up with this pedantic nonsense
Pembroke,
Where exactly did Tigerbatics say he would not comply with the ANO/ANR, plan properly, use Cap 413 as an RT standard, or comply with local airfield procedures? CAP413 doesnt apply if you switch the thing off.
I agree with him/her. If you fly non-radio (but at all times complying with all the rules la la la etc), then you dont have to put up with the irrelevant guff that a lot of pilots spout forth over the R/T. And doesn't it just wind you up when a pilot presses the tit, and says nothing for ages....?
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"line up and wait after the landing...", instead of "after the landing aircraft, line up and wait"
I would suggest that most PPL's only get to fly once every 3 weeks at the most. Whilst I agree that pilots should strive for RT perfection, the most important thing is that the required information gets across concisely. If you can get the order right, well that's a bonus!
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Re the above, I totally agree that non radio is wonderful, but I am talking about south east England! Surely the radio is a communication, not just with the ground ATSU but perhaps more importantly, to let other pilots know what's happening. I also agree that long messages are frustrating, witness Biggin on a busy day, with aircraft in transit.
The comment about the "conditional" clearence, " after the landing...,line up and wait" defeats me. Isn't it obvious that if the reply is clipped/ stepped on, the controller only has the option of a go around? This is basic stuff and a 3 week lay off shouldn't be an excuse.
I asked for comments and deliberately put on this forum, not the one above. I know that there are many PPLs who do plan and fly safely, but this seems to have flushed out some strange responses. I also note that there is a comment on the IMCR thread that using an IMCR in French airspace is no worse than breaking the speed limit on the M20!
Before I go back to digging my allotment I will leave with the following. There is always an active discussion on the merits of various GPS systems. Four fine aviators took off from a well known southern airport, grossly overloaded , straight into a CB, The aircraft, C172 had a skymap GPS and they also had each a handheld GPS. They climbed to altitude, into the CB with the stall warner going. But they flew on and it wasn't an accident. Comment afterwards, "didn't see the weather....stall warner always goes off on this aircraft"
Think on
The comment about the "conditional" clearence, " after the landing...,line up and wait" defeats me. Isn't it obvious that if the reply is clipped/ stepped on, the controller only has the option of a go around? This is basic stuff and a 3 week lay off shouldn't be an excuse.
I asked for comments and deliberately put on this forum, not the one above. I know that there are many PPLs who do plan and fly safely, but this seems to have flushed out some strange responses. I also note that there is a comment on the IMCR thread that using an IMCR in French airspace is no worse than breaking the speed limit on the M20!
Before I go back to digging my allotment I will leave with the following. There is always an active discussion on the merits of various GPS systems. Four fine aviators took off from a well known southern airport, grossly overloaded , straight into a CB, The aircraft, C172 had a skymap GPS and they also had each a handheld GPS. They climbed to altitude, into the CB with the stall warner going. But they flew on and it wasn't an accident. Comment afterwards, "didn't see the weather....stall warner always goes off on this aircraft"
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There is always an active discussion on the merits of various GPS systems. Four fine aviators took off from a well known southern airport, grossly overloaded , straight into a CB, The aircraft, C172 had a skymap GPS and they also had each a handheld GPS. They climbed to altitude, into the CB with the stall warner going. But they flew on and it wasn't an accident. Comment afterwards, "didn't see the weather....stall warner always goes off on this aircraft"
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Pembroke,
I try very hard not to be judgemental on these fora, but I have to say, if you're not a troll, you really should spend more time in your allotment.
Portions of your last post are just inane ramblings. "I asked for comments and deliberately put on this forum, not the one above." What ?
And as for the "CB story", it really does come across as if you're suggesting that the GPS would/should have warned the crew of the presence of a CB. Well, perhaps in the USA, old fruit, but not on these shores.
I try very hard not to be judgemental on these fora, but I have to say, if you're not a troll, you really should spend more time in your allotment.
Portions of your last post are just inane ramblings. "I asked for comments and deliberately put on this forum, not the one above." What ?
And as for the "CB story", it really does come across as if you're suggesting that the GPS would/should have warned the crew of the presence of a CB. Well, perhaps in the USA, old fruit, but not on these shores.
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pembroke,
Please quit the constant whinging. It's making me depressed, and it's not even true, or not universally. On Saturday I flew with a student to Sywell, which was packed out - loads of pilots enjoying the first decent day we've had for months, plus a microlight fly-in. I was expecting chaos, but I saw and heard mainly switched-on, well-organised, careful pilots, doing very well considering some of them must have been quite rusty after all the appalling weather we've had. Maybe not every radio call was perfect, but they were all good enough in terms of basic communication, and that's what matters.
I can't believe we're so much better up here than you lot are in the south-east, so don't you think you might be exaggerating just a little bit?
Please quit the constant whinging. It's making me depressed, and it's not even true, or not universally. On Saturday I flew with a student to Sywell, which was packed out - loads of pilots enjoying the first decent day we've had for months, plus a microlight fly-in. I was expecting chaos, but I saw and heard mainly switched-on, well-organised, careful pilots, doing very well considering some of them must have been quite rusty after all the appalling weather we've had. Maybe not every radio call was perfect, but they were all good enough in terms of basic communication, and that's what matters.
I can't believe we're so much better up here than you lot are in the south-east, so don't you think you might be exaggerating just a little bit?
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We can be a lawless bunch down here*, but ASFAIK no one bumped into anyone at the weekend, which is presumably what pembroke is concerned about, ultimately...
* You know, saying 'finals' instead of 'final' - or even not using the radio at all - but of course whenever I fly non-radio I always do so very properly, using all the right words in the right order, to CAP std.
* You know, saying 'finals' instead of 'final' - or even not using the radio at all - but of course whenever I fly non-radio I always do so very properly, using all the right words in the right order, to CAP std.
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To answer some of the above points and hopefully put this thread to bed.
The C172 "incident" was simply an example of poor airmanship. The aircraft was overloaded and the pilot flew straight into a CB looking and chatting about their GPS position with the stall warner going full blast.
This thread is neither being pedantic or a whinge. as I said, I could have posted this on the FI/FE page but chose to put it here.
I have just read the AAIB report on the PA28 accident close to the beach in Blackpool. If that doesn't make all of GA to think carefully about their flying ,I don't know what will.
The C172 "incident" was simply an example of poor airmanship. The aircraft was overloaded and the pilot flew straight into a CB looking and chatting about their GPS position with the stall warner going full blast.
This thread is neither being pedantic or a whinge. as I said, I could have posted this on the FI/FE page but chose to put it here.
I have just read the AAIB report on the PA28 accident close to the beach in Blackpool. If that doesn't make all of GA to think carefully about their flying ,I don't know what will.
Last edited by pembroke; 16th Feb 2008 at 12:19.
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I have just read the AAIB report on the PA28 accident close to the beach in Blackpool. If that doesn't make all of GA to think carefully about their flying ,I don't know what will.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=blackpool
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RT.....
Two things get me wound up....
Pilots who PTT then give either their life story, or take 90 minutes to deliver a standard PACER, and....
Pilots who DON'T listen before PTT.
Pilots who PTT then give either their life story, or take 90 minutes to deliver a standard PACER, and....
Pilots who DON'T listen before PTT.
