Just starting PPL training - finance, planes, destinations
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Just starting PPL training - finance, planes, destinations
Hi
I am due to start my PPL training this month. After an excellent trial flight at Flight Academy Blackpool, I have decided that they are a suitable company to train with. I have a few questions that I am interested in an unbiased view on :
1) Finance - I intended to pay upfront for all my training to PPL since it makes financial sense, however checking out this forum I have been slightly put off. Should I really be concerned about them going bust? Surely a reputable company like F A B is unlikely go insolvent? The savings are excellent if you pay up front.
2) Choice of plane - is it really worth paying extra for an Archer 111 rather than a Cessna 152? The difference is about £2K over the training period. My wife has already said that she won't sit in the backseat while I am training, so is there any point on having a larger plane? I can presumably rent an Archer 111 in the future from F A B?
3) Destinations during training - I wish to use the flying time during training to go to some interesting places rather than flying in circles round Blackpool. I have a house being built near Isle of Mull and was hoping to fly there during lessons to check on the build. Is this realistic?
4) PPL v NPPL - Since I have no intention of becoming a pro pilot or fly abroad, could I just get away with a NPPL? I cannot afford to buy or rent a multi-engine plane and is flying at night that fun?
Any help much appreciated.
Thanks
I am due to start my PPL training this month. After an excellent trial flight at Flight Academy Blackpool, I have decided that they are a suitable company to train with. I have a few questions that I am interested in an unbiased view on :
1) Finance - I intended to pay upfront for all my training to PPL since it makes financial sense, however checking out this forum I have been slightly put off. Should I really be concerned about them going bust? Surely a reputable company like F A B is unlikely go insolvent? The savings are excellent if you pay up front.
2) Choice of plane - is it really worth paying extra for an Archer 111 rather than a Cessna 152? The difference is about £2K over the training period. My wife has already said that she won't sit in the backseat while I am training, so is there any point on having a larger plane? I can presumably rent an Archer 111 in the future from F A B?
3) Destinations during training - I wish to use the flying time during training to go to some interesting places rather than flying in circles round Blackpool. I have a house being built near Isle of Mull and was hoping to fly there during lessons to check on the build. Is this realistic?
4) PPL v NPPL - Since I have no intention of becoming a pro pilot or fly abroad, could I just get away with a NPPL? I cannot afford to buy or rent a multi-engine plane and is flying at night that fun?
Any help much appreciated.
Thanks
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Hello there.
Whatever you do, dont pay upfront. It is quite well known in the aviation industry for flight schools to go bankrupt. If they are requesting for all the money to be paid upfront they may have a cash flow problem. Believe me, I am no expert. But it has been firmly drilled into my head from other professional pilots. If you lose money, you WONT get it back. I cant see how you can make a saving by paying upfront. Anyway, i just thought id give my two pence worth
Good luck with the training matey
Whatever you do, dont pay upfront. It is quite well known in the aviation industry for flight schools to go bankrupt. If they are requesting for all the money to be paid upfront they may have a cash flow problem. Believe me, I am no expert. But it has been firmly drilled into my head from other professional pilots. If you lose money, you WONT get it back. I cant see how you can make a saving by paying upfront. Anyway, i just thought id give my two pence worth
Good luck with the training matey
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1. Never pay upfront
2. Train in a 152 - why pay to carry empty seats around? Fuel consumption is less in the 152 - why burn more than necessary? Converting to a PA-28 after would only be a couple of hours.
3. More than likely that your training provider will have 'standard' routes which have been selected with just the right amount of challenge / development potential. If you progress well with these, then you can 'discuss' further afield with your instructor at the time.
4. Your choice really - start with the NPPL and 'upgrade' later if you've no immediate need for RNAV, Flying abroad, flying with more that 4 POB. The upgrade route would probably easier once you're comfortable with handling the aeroplane.
And yes, Nights flying is more FUN! Problem is there isn't that many places you can go without incurring significant landing fee's / out of hours charges!
Flay safe.
2. Train in a 152 - why pay to carry empty seats around? Fuel consumption is less in the 152 - why burn more than necessary? Converting to a PA-28 after would only be a couple of hours.
3. More than likely that your training provider will have 'standard' routes which have been selected with just the right amount of challenge / development potential. If you progress well with these, then you can 'discuss' further afield with your instructor at the time.
4. Your choice really - start with the NPPL and 'upgrade' later if you've no immediate need for RNAV, Flying abroad, flying with more that 4 POB. The upgrade route would probably easier once you're comfortable with handling the aeroplane.
And yes, Nights flying is more FUN! Problem is there isn't that many places you can go without incurring significant landing fee's / out of hours charges!
Flay safe.
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Q1 - Advice is not to pay upfront, unless you can afford to lose that money.
Q2 - choice of aircraft. Up to you. I assume you want to carry more than 1 passenger when qualified? If so, at some point you will have to "convert" to the Archer anyway at (say) 1-2 hrs at (say) £125 per hour - so its got to factored in somehow.
Q3 - Flying away during training. You are of course free to PAY EXTRA to go wherever you and your instructor are capable of going!! However, for the SYLLABUS itself, each Flying School has a limited choice of NAVEX routes, conditional upon the capabilities of the student and aircraft.
Q4 - You have answered your own question really. Its a matter of WHAT you want to do post licence.
good luck
Q2 - choice of aircraft. Up to you. I assume you want to carry more than 1 passenger when qualified? If so, at some point you will have to "convert" to the Archer anyway at (say) 1-2 hrs at (say) £125 per hour - so its got to factored in somehow.
Q3 - Flying away during training. You are of course free to PAY EXTRA to go wherever you and your instructor are capable of going!! However, for the SYLLABUS itself, each Flying School has a limited choice of NAVEX routes, conditional upon the capabilities of the student and aircraft.
Q4 - You have answered your own question really. Its a matter of WHAT you want to do post licence.
good luck
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1) All sorts of companies go bust, including highly "reputable" ones ... the real answer to this is that if you can obtain a large discount by paying upfront, then it becomes simply a matter of whether you are willing to risk your capital. If you cannot afford or do not wish to, then don't do it ... you could always ask to see their latest management accounts ...
2) If you can fit comfortably into the smaller plane, then I don't see the point of paying or the larger one. Of course, if you're 6'6", and don't work as a circus contortionist, the Archer starts to look a better prospect !
3) I doubt whether a 4 hour round trip would be part of a standard curriculum, but you might be able to negotiate something individually with the school ?
4) Over to someone else for NPPL info ...
Good luck !
2) If you can fit comfortably into the smaller plane, then I don't see the point of paying or the larger one. Of course, if you're 6'6", and don't work as a circus contortionist, the Archer starts to look a better prospect !
3) I doubt whether a 4 hour round trip would be part of a standard curriculum, but you might be able to negotiate something individually with the school ?
4) Over to someone else for NPPL info ...
Good luck !
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Companies' fortunes can change in seconds. They can be bought/sold, the CFI can leave, they can get clobbered by their landlord/HMRC/a former pupil, all of which are totally outside your control. Read this thread to learn about how one company has run off with over £1,000, and you are preparing to pay much more up front.
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i paid upfront, however a discount was offered for doing so
nnpl / ppl , it might be worth your while consdering an nppl m
the new generation of 3 axis microlights out perform most spam cans
are easier and considerably cheaper to fly, and buy once trained, and you can fly to Europe in a microlight with an nppl m, although not with an nppl sep
nnpl / ppl , it might be worth your while consdering an nppl m
the new generation of 3 axis microlights out perform most spam cans
are easier and considerably cheaper to fly, and buy once trained, and you can fly to Europe in a microlight with an nppl m, although not with an nppl sep
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Plenty has been said about not paying up front so I won't add to it. I would learn in the C152. It is more responsive and makes you think about what you are doing - you need to fly it not just sit in it. I find the PA28 and 38 very heavy and unresponsive. It is also interesting to note that those who trained at the same time as I did, but in the PA 28, found conversion to the DA40TDi much more difficult as they found it very twitchy - something I didn't, but feel it was because I learned in the more responsive aircraft. The Examiner who did my skills test said that when conducting a CPL test, he could always tell when someone had learned in a Cessna as they knew what to do with their feet. 
You will spend a lot of time learning so any savings you can make will be good. A conversion, once you have your PPL, to an aircraft with more seats won't cost nearly as much as you will save by learning in the C152. I still fly the 152 and thoroughly enjoy it. I also have my DA40 conversion for when I wish to take two friends with me - so I have the best of both worlds. 
You will spend a lot of time learning so any savings you can make will be good. A conversion, once you have your PPL, to an aircraft with more seats won't cost nearly as much as you will save by learning in the C152. I still fly the 152 and thoroughly enjoy it. I also have my DA40 conversion for when I wish to take two friends with me - so I have the best of both worlds.
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On the JAR-FCL and the NPPL front.
The NPPL will be limited to:
The NPPL will be limited to:
- VFR only (no Night, IMC or IR ratings can be added), minimum visibility 5kms (10kms under Special VFR)
- UK-registered aircraft only
- Flight in UK airspace only
- Simple aircraft types only (can be extended with extra training)
- Maximum of three passengers
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Payment upfront
With my lawyer hat on, I'd like to clarify the situation regarding upfront payments by credit card: one advantage of paying for services with a credit card is that if there's a problem the credit card company is liable to the same extent as the supplier (s.75 Consumer Credit Act 1974).
In essence that means that in the event of the insolvency of your training provider during your PPL training, you can bring a claim against your credit card company for the outstanding balance to be credited to you. In turn, by subrogation the credit card provider steps into your shoes and claims against the training provider as an unsecured creditor. They rank pretty much at the bottom of the payment waterfall, but you have your money back and it's not your concern.
That being said, the discount offered for upfront payment may well be offset by a surcharge for credit card payments (I don't believe FAB does this, though), and the benefit of paying upfront assumes you clear the balance before it starts to accrue interest.
I did my IMCR with FAB at the end of last year and really enjoyed it - the Archer III is a dream to fly on long distances. The ILS, NDB, Warton MATZ and nearby Manchester and Liverpool zones will give you confidence to undertake ambitious x-country flights after you get your ticket.
In essence that means that in the event of the insolvency of your training provider during your PPL training, you can bring a claim against your credit card company for the outstanding balance to be credited to you. In turn, by subrogation the credit card provider steps into your shoes and claims against the training provider as an unsecured creditor. They rank pretty much at the bottom of the payment waterfall, but you have your money back and it's not your concern.
That being said, the discount offered for upfront payment may well be offset by a surcharge for credit card payments (I don't believe FAB does this, though), and the benefit of paying upfront assumes you clear the balance before it starts to accrue interest.
I did my IMCR with FAB at the end of last year and really enjoyed it - the Archer III is a dream to fly on long distances. The ILS, NDB, Warton MATZ and nearby Manchester and Liverpool zones will give you confidence to undertake ambitious x-country flights after you get your ticket.
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Much as said on the first three, as far as NPPL v PPL goes, you will probably find that you do almost as much flying to get the NPPL as you would to get the full PPL, unless you have medical reasons to do otherwise I would go for the full PPL.
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Just to pick up on something said in the original post.
As I understand the guidance from the CAA; passengers are not permitted on training flights, apart from the air experience flight, unless a fellow student or possibly someone with some sort of financal interest in the training?
My wife has already said that she won't sit in the backseat while I am training, so is there any point on having a larger plane?
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Pay up front with a credit card
Fly in both a/c to see if you like it, some hate C152s others hate them as their is less room and not everyone like s a high wing.
Flying to Mull is not always that simple due to weather and high ground, ensure you do not involve yourself in any hero stuff as the high ground in Scotland is very unforgiving!
Fly in both a/c to see if you like it, some hate C152s others hate them as their is less room and not everyone like s a high wing.
Flying to Mull is not always that simple due to weather and high ground, ensure you do not involve yourself in any hero stuff as the high ground in Scotland is very unforgiving!
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lauchiemb,
Re: NPPL vs PPL
You might want to have a quick browse through this little debate ...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325663
Basically, you really need to do your own homework on that one, because you really need to make yourself aware and satisfy yourself that an NPPL will meet your needs. Only you know what your plans are post-training, and only you know your personal circumstances.
My personal opinion is that unless you really cannot afford it, or you are unable to pass the medical, then you should go the whole way and get an ICAO recognised JAA PPL.
Re: NPPL vs PPL
You might want to have a quick browse through this little debate ...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325663
Basically, you really need to do your own homework on that one, because you really need to make yourself aware and satisfy yourself that an NPPL will meet your needs. Only you know what your plans are post-training, and only you know your personal circumstances.
My personal opinion is that unless you really cannot afford it, or you are unable to pass the medical, then you should go the whole way and get an ICAO recognised JAA PPL.
