Llanbedr Airfield
Llanbedr Planning
We do not WASTE our time on here,we have written to the SNPA to tell them their legal advice was as C..p as Cotswolds was.
We also told them that Llanbedr was available for civilian aircraft during its time as research airfield.
We also wrote to the Members of the Park Authority to let them know what was going on under "delegated powers".
We will also let MEMBERS of the Snowdonia Society know what is going on in their name.
Some of us have been in this situation ourselves,and know how difficult it is to combat a minority pressure group that threatens "judicial review" when local planners will not dance to their tune.
Some of us would like to use llanbedr again.
The politics of the situation are firmly with the SS who have a former Welsh Assembly minister steering them headlong against everyone else.
Back llanbedr or back off.
Pobjoy
We also told them that Llanbedr was available for civilian aircraft during its time as research airfield.
We also wrote to the Members of the Park Authority to let them know what was going on under "delegated powers".
We will also let MEMBERS of the Snowdonia Society know what is going on in their name.
Some of us have been in this situation ourselves,and know how difficult it is to combat a minority pressure group that threatens "judicial review" when local planners will not dance to their tune.
Some of us would like to use llanbedr again.
The politics of the situation are firmly with the SS who have a former Welsh Assembly minister steering them headlong against everyone else.
Back llanbedr or back off.
Pobjoy
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I am going to try and make this simple so you understand the planning process POBJOY.
27 applications were submitted on behalf of Llanbedr Airfield Estates LLP.
One was in relation to use of runway and I am not aware of any opposition to the use of the runway should there be an application.
26 applications were for the use of the buildings that will constitute change of use for non airfield/aviation activity.
It is the non aviation use that makes the airfield viable for any purchaser.
I'll try and give you an example.
I own a touring caravan park where people come and stay on a short term holiday basis. I have planning permission for holiday use for touring caravans.
However if I want to exploit the property value then residential caravans will give me a better return.
Can I site residential caravans?
The answer is no.
Please understand that the Llanbedr situation is not (as you appear to think) an opposition to the proposed re use of a redundant site.
It is just the case that certain planning laws have to be complied with.
I wish Llanbedr Airfield Estates LLP the best of luck and hope they achieve their aims.
However they are bound by the same rules as everyone else.
Getting wound up will achieve nothing
27 applications were submitted on behalf of Llanbedr Airfield Estates LLP.
One was in relation to use of runway and I am not aware of any opposition to the use of the runway should there be an application.
26 applications were for the use of the buildings that will constitute change of use for non airfield/aviation activity.
It is the non aviation use that makes the airfield viable for any purchaser.
I'll try and give you an example.
I own a touring caravan park where people come and stay on a short term holiday basis. I have planning permission for holiday use for touring caravans.
However if I want to exploit the property value then residential caravans will give me a better return.
Can I site residential caravans?
The answer is no.
Please understand that the Llanbedr situation is not (as you appear to think) an opposition to the proposed re use of a redundant site.
It is just the case that certain planning laws have to be complied with.
I wish Llanbedr Airfield Estates LLP the best of luck and hope they achieve their aims.
However they are bound by the same rules as everyone else.
Getting wound up will achieve nothing
Llanbedr Drones on
Ah we now see the problem "your planning expertise is in caravan parks" and probably not situated in a National Park.
The Snowdonia National Park Authority did not refuse the request for lawful use certs because THEY did not like it,they unfortunately based their decision on a legal opinion from outside the area.
The fact that this opinion was the very same that advised "Cotswolds " in their deeply flawed attempt (and humiliating failure) to get Kemble to make applications for "Kembles Use" is not lost on most persons.
Most of use can see what is happening at Llanbedr,and it has nothing to do with planning,but everything to do with creating delay to the point that the "preferred" operator will give up and go somewhere else.
The opposition know that if Kemble go away there is little chance that someone else will bother with the location.
Great result for GA,and an even better result in keeping the unemployment levels well up to North Wales standards.
Llanbedr has always been an airfield since its construction.Its current "looks like new" status only confirms there has never been an attempt to remove it,or prevent "airfield type operations".
Despite your incorrect information regarding civilian use,and so called lack of use the real fact is,it has never been abandoned or been anything other than an airfield with many mixes of flying.
It is the SNPA who are responsible for the planning in the area,not the Snowdonia Society.The arrogance of this organisation (or a member of it) to suggest that Kemble need to "clear" matters with them before being dealt with by the LPA speaks for itself.
The LPA has a duty to deal with planning matters in a "fair and reasonable manner" the choice of legal advice,and the close involvement with the SS would seem to be at odds to this.
Pobjoy
The Snowdonia National Park Authority did not refuse the request for lawful use certs because THEY did not like it,they unfortunately based their decision on a legal opinion from outside the area.
The fact that this opinion was the very same that advised "Cotswolds " in their deeply flawed attempt (and humiliating failure) to get Kemble to make applications for "Kembles Use" is not lost on most persons.
Most of use can see what is happening at Llanbedr,and it has nothing to do with planning,but everything to do with creating delay to the point that the "preferred" operator will give up and go somewhere else.
The opposition know that if Kemble go away there is little chance that someone else will bother with the location.
Great result for GA,and an even better result in keeping the unemployment levels well up to North Wales standards.
Llanbedr has always been an airfield since its construction.Its current "looks like new" status only confirms there has never been an attempt to remove it,or prevent "airfield type operations".
Despite your incorrect information regarding civilian use,and so called lack of use the real fact is,it has never been abandoned or been anything other than an airfield with many mixes of flying.
It is the SNPA who are responsible for the planning in the area,not the Snowdonia Society.The arrogance of this organisation (or a member of it) to suggest that Kemble need to "clear" matters with them before being dealt with by the LPA speaks for itself.
The LPA has a duty to deal with planning matters in a "fair and reasonable manner" the choice of legal advice,and the close involvement with the SS would seem to be at odds to this.
Pobjoy
Llanbedr Planning
Hi V tail
I have written to the SNPA to confirm that Llanbedr was available to civilian aircraft,before it closed.
I also asked them the question "What is it in planning terms if not an airfield".
They have had some very poor and biased legal advice,so may well be reconsidering the whole issue at present.
Any letters addressed to the "Head of planning " should confirm the facts that this airfield has never been abandoned,or ever been anything other than an airfield.
The drone issue should not cloud the issue,as it was still used as an airfield for a mix of aircraft whilst the drones were in use.
The point is that the drones (unmanned aircraft) used an existing airfield that did not reduce its capacity or change its use for manned aircraft.
The SNPA are in difficult position,as they will be subject to severe scrutiny and lobbying by the Snowdonia Society.
However a series of factual letters confirming Llanbedrs use and unbroken history will be helpful.
Pobjoy
I have written to the SNPA to confirm that Llanbedr was available to civilian aircraft,before it closed.
I also asked them the question "What is it in planning terms if not an airfield".
They have had some very poor and biased legal advice,so may well be reconsidering the whole issue at present.
Any letters addressed to the "Head of planning " should confirm the facts that this airfield has never been abandoned,or ever been anything other than an airfield.
The drone issue should not cloud the issue,as it was still used as an airfield for a mix of aircraft whilst the drones were in use.
The point is that the drones (unmanned aircraft) used an existing airfield that did not reduce its capacity or change its use for manned aircraft.
The SNPA are in difficult position,as they will be subject to severe scrutiny and lobbying by the Snowdonia Society.
However a series of factual letters confirming Llanbedrs use and unbroken history will be helpful.
Pobjoy
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Pobjoy
Much as I wish to support the retention of the airfield at Llanbedr I object to your attitude which appears to be partisan to the commercial thinking of the
applicants who wish to bypass the planning authorities in Wales.
I STRESS AGAIN I WISH TO SUPPORT THE RETENTION OF THE AIRFIELD
However I also want SNPA to impose conditions on the 26 units that you continue to avoid to discuss here.
(unit 27 is the airfield which we all support)
I am afraid that this is going to become an issue in the local press and BBC Wales.
You may well want to lock the mouths of us locals but as a private pilot and Welsh broadcaster I am not prepared to let Kemble walk all over us.
Much as I wish to support the retention of the airfield at Llanbedr I object to your attitude which appears to be partisan to the commercial thinking of the
applicants who wish to bypass the planning authorities in Wales.
I STRESS AGAIN I WISH TO SUPPORT THE RETENTION OF THE AIRFIELD
However I also want SNPA to impose conditions on the 26 units that you continue to avoid to discuss here.
(unit 27 is the airfield which we all support)
I am afraid that this is going to become an issue in the local press and BBC Wales.
You may well want to lock the mouths of us locals but as a private pilot and Welsh broadcaster I am not prepared to let Kemble walk all over us.
Llanbedr Conditions
And what conditions would YOU wish to impose on these english invaders then.
All out in the open now, Kemble are up against the Snowdonia Society and Radio Wales.
Neither of which seem to be in accord with the actual local inhabitants of Llanbedr.
Strange that !!!
I hope the information going out on the air waves is more accurate than what we have had from certain posts here.
And by the way do not bother to send me private messages suggesting that you are fighting for the Welsh people (who gave you that mandate),or wish to prevent Kemble "Walking all over us",or that Radio Wales is also going to be used as "mouthpiece".Go to a public meeting in Llanbedr and find out what they want. The truth might hurt.
Pobjoy
All out in the open now, Kemble are up against the Snowdonia Society and Radio Wales.
Neither of which seem to be in accord with the actual local inhabitants of Llanbedr.
Strange that !!!
I hope the information going out on the air waves is more accurate than what we have had from certain posts here.
And by the way do not bother to send me private messages suggesting that you are fighting for the Welsh people (who gave you that mandate),or wish to prevent Kemble "Walking all over us",or that Radio Wales is also going to be used as "mouthpiece".Go to a public meeting in Llanbedr and find out what they want. The truth might hurt.
Pobjoy
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Llanbedr Update
A meeting to "clear the air" about proposals for an airfield on the site of a former RAF base in Gwynedd has been called by community leaders.
Llanbedr Community Council said there was local and political support for plans for Llanbedr airfield to reopen.
The Snowdonia Society has objected to proposals about the site.
BBC News - Public meeting on stalled Llanbedr airfield revamp
Llanbedr Community Council said there was local and political support for plans for Llanbedr airfield to reopen.
The Snowdonia Society has objected to proposals about the site.
BBC News - Public meeting on stalled Llanbedr airfield revamp
It may have been RAF when first built, but to call it 'former RAF' is being a bit economical with the truth considering it was RAE/DRA/DERA/Qinetiq for about 50 years before closing.ie for much longer than its possible RAF 'ownership'.
I can confirm use by manned aircraft up to its closing both by MOD(DPA) operated aircraft and by Hawks from RAF Valley. Latterly it was operated by SERCo so they may have records of any civil aircraft which used it.
I can confirm use by manned aircraft up to its closing both by MOD(DPA) operated aircraft and by Hawks from RAF Valley. Latterly it was operated by SERCo so they may have records of any civil aircraft which used it.
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Below is the BBC report on the meeting.
The key point Kemble make is summed up here;
Normal planning applications are decided inside 8 weeks.
However Kemble argue this could be 18 months!
There is no dispute as I understand about using the runways for GA flights.
But as Haverfordwest does not make money from GA how can Llanbedr which is more remote?
I suspect that the application for a certificate of lawfulness is a method of using the site and buildings for uses that do not want to attract publicity.
There is public support for transport/storage on site so why not just apply for
change of use which will take 8 weeks max?
Here is the BBC report;
Public 'support' for Llanbedr airfield plan
The key point Kemble make is summed up here;
Mr Young argued that formal planning permission would take too long, possibly another 18 months, and he hoped the wording for a "certificate of lawful use" could be agreed with the park authority.
The park authority previously refused the certificates that would allow the site to reopen.
The park authority previously refused the certificates that would allow the site to reopen.
However Kemble argue this could be 18 months!
There is no dispute as I understand about using the runways for GA flights.
But as Haverfordwest does not make money from GA how can Llanbedr which is more remote?
I suspect that the application for a certificate of lawfulness is a method of using the site and buildings for uses that do not want to attract publicity.
There is public support for transport/storage on site so why not just apply for
change of use which will take 8 weeks max?
Here is the BBC report;
Public 'support' for Llanbedr airfield plan
Developers hoping to reopen an airfield say they are encouraged by support at a packed public meeting.
Meirionnydd Nant Conwy MP Elfyn Llwyd MP chaired the meeting to "clear the air" about proposals for Llanbedr airfield in Gwynedd.
Llanbedr Airfield Estates wants to use the land for private flights and let empty buildings on the site for business use.
The Snowdonia Society has opposed the proposals.
The society argues that a commercial airfield would go against the key aims of the national park to protect the landscape and give enjoyment to the public.
The public meeting was organised by Llanbedr Community Council, which is backing the proposals for the airfield.
David Young, Llanbedr Airfield Estates director, told BBC Wales: "It was incredibly encouraging to see a packed village hall in Llanbedr and, as far as I could tell, all bar four absolutely still behind our reopening of Llanbedr airfield.
We want future use of this site to form part of a wider strategy for regenerating Ardudwy which will bring the maximum benefit to the whole area
The Snowdonia Society
"It was also very encouraging to hear the chairman of Snowdonia National Park Authority say that their doors are still open."
Mr Young said he was concerned that a "stalemate" had been reached with the park authority but now believed progress could be made.
"What we have to understand right now is that we have wasted two years at the site at Llanbedr," he said.
"From our point of view, the site has got to be opened this spring."
The Snowdonia Society said it regretted the developers' "determination not to apply for planning permission, thereby avoiding normal statutory safeguards for the environment".
"We do not wish this site to be sterilised. In particular we have consistently supported use of the existing buildings to provide space for local businesses and jobs for local people," the society said in a statement after the meeting.
Tourism industry
"We want future use of this site to form part of a wider strategy for regenerating Ardudwy which will bring the maximum benefit to the whole area.
"We also want future use of this site to be compatible with the status of the area as a national park and with the multi-million pound tourism industry founded on that."
Mr Young argued that formal planning permission would take too long, possibly another 18 months, and he hoped the wording for a "certificate of lawful use" could be agreed with the park authority.
The park authority previously refused the certificates that would allow the site to reopen.
Llanbedr Airfield Estates was formed by Kemble Air Services, which runs Cotswold Airport at Cirencester in Gloucestershire.
Meirionnydd Nant Conwy MP Elfyn Llwyd MP chaired the meeting to "clear the air" about proposals for Llanbedr airfield in Gwynedd.
Llanbedr Airfield Estates wants to use the land for private flights and let empty buildings on the site for business use.
The Snowdonia Society has opposed the proposals.
The society argues that a commercial airfield would go against the key aims of the national park to protect the landscape and give enjoyment to the public.
The public meeting was organised by Llanbedr Community Council, which is backing the proposals for the airfield.
David Young, Llanbedr Airfield Estates director, told BBC Wales: "It was incredibly encouraging to see a packed village hall in Llanbedr and, as far as I could tell, all bar four absolutely still behind our reopening of Llanbedr airfield.
We want future use of this site to form part of a wider strategy for regenerating Ardudwy which will bring the maximum benefit to the whole area
The Snowdonia Society
"It was also very encouraging to hear the chairman of Snowdonia National Park Authority say that their doors are still open."
Mr Young said he was concerned that a "stalemate" had been reached with the park authority but now believed progress could be made.
"What we have to understand right now is that we have wasted two years at the site at Llanbedr," he said.
"From our point of view, the site has got to be opened this spring."
The Snowdonia Society said it regretted the developers' "determination not to apply for planning permission, thereby avoiding normal statutory safeguards for the environment".
"We do not wish this site to be sterilised. In particular we have consistently supported use of the existing buildings to provide space for local businesses and jobs for local people," the society said in a statement after the meeting.
Tourism industry
"We want future use of this site to form part of a wider strategy for regenerating Ardudwy which will bring the maximum benefit to the whole area.
"We also want future use of this site to be compatible with the status of the area as a national park and with the multi-million pound tourism industry founded on that."
Mr Young argued that formal planning permission would take too long, possibly another 18 months, and he hoped the wording for a "certificate of lawful use" could be agreed with the park authority.
The park authority previously refused the certificates that would allow the site to reopen.
Llanbedr Airfield Estates was formed by Kemble Air Services, which runs Cotswold Airport at Cirencester in Gloucestershire.
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As David Young also pointed out in the meeting, where would there be any change of use from its previous use? Offices would still be used as offices, workshops as workshops, and hangars as hangars. Should further building development or change of use be envisaged, then naturally full planning permission would be required. Whether it is required where no change at the moment is contemplated is questionable.
Last edited by pianydd; 20th Feb 2010 at 22:51. Reason: Dodgy punctuation.
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But the real value of the airfield could be to dismantle redundant airliners and to
be a drone site.
The fact that Kemble are so reluctant to go through an open planning process where there is general support for re-use of the airfield raises red flags.
Just why are Kemble so opposed to a conventional planning application.
Could it be that have something to hide?
be a drone site.
The fact that Kemble are so reluctant to go through an open planning process where there is general support for re-use of the airfield raises red flags.
The Snowdonia Society said it regretted the developers' "determination not to apply for planning permission, thereby avoiding normal statutory safeguards for the environment".
"We do not wish this site to be sterilised. In particular we have consistently supported use of the existing buildings to provide space for local businesses and jobs for local people," the society said in a statement after the meeting.
"We do not wish this site to be sterilised. In particular we have consistently supported use of the existing buildings to provide space for local businesses and jobs for local people," the society said in a statement after the meeting.
Could it be that have something to hide?
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I think it's very unlikely that Kemble have any nefarious schemes for Llanbedr, they've shown themselves to be responsible operators of an airfield and small industrial park close to an important AONB. i.e. the Cotswolds.
However they've been stung by the planning process to some tune and though they won it cost them a lot of time, effort and money. David Young's 18 months was based on bitter experience.
Their case seems entirely sensible to me. In broad terms.. "We plan to reopen the airfield and use the facilities for the kind of uses they had before. If we want to change those uses in any material way we'll clearly need planning permission and will apply if it makes commercial sense and we think we stand a reasonable chance of getting it. If you lot are serious about supporting us then give us a certificate of lawful use for the first part, so there's no risk of any misunderstanding, and then we'll go from there."
However they've been stung by the planning process to some tune and though they won it cost them a lot of time, effort and money. David Young's 18 months was based on bitter experience.
Their case seems entirely sensible to me. In broad terms.. "We plan to reopen the airfield and use the facilities for the kind of uses they had before. If we want to change those uses in any material way we'll clearly need planning permission and will apply if it makes commercial sense and we think we stand a reasonable chance of getting it. If you lot are serious about supporting us then give us a certificate of lawful use for the first part, so there's no risk of any misunderstanding, and then we'll go from there."
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Well aircraft dismantling is certainly a key part of Kemble as this feature in the Independant confirms.
Jet cemetery: Where do aircraft go when airlines go to the wall? - Home News, UK - The Independent
Kemble is described on many sites as one of the world's biggest aircraft scrapyards.
Jet cemetery: Where do aircraft go when airlines go to the wall? - Home News, UK - The Independent
Kemble is described on many sites as one of the world's biggest aircraft scrapyards.
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I'm a bit mystified by Phil Space. Yes aircraft dismantling and recycling is going on at Kemble at a substantial rate at present. I guess in a recession that's not too surprising. It entails about one big jet arrival a month and doesn't greatly disturb anyone. The traffic from nearby Brize Norton and Lyneham is much more significant and I'd guess the activities at Valley would outshine anything that might operate from Llanbedr.
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<< But as Haverfordwest does not make money from GA how can Llanbedr which is more remote?>>
Eh! Haverfordwest is doing fine thanks!
Owned by Pembrokeshire County Council, two flying schools, an air charter company, hangars full of fee paying private owners, home to the Pembs Spitfire restoration group, four permanent staff in the tower, site of the county agricultural show, I could go on...
What is more important is why Phil Space seems to have some sort of agenda against Llanbedr?
Eh! Haverfordwest is doing fine thanks!
Owned by Pembrokeshire County Council, two flying schools, an air charter company, hangars full of fee paying private owners, home to the Pembs Spitfire restoration group, four permanent staff in the tower, site of the county agricultural show, I could go on...
What is more important is why Phil Space seems to have some sort of agenda against Llanbedr?
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Hmmmmm I was thinking the same Vee Tail 1, especially for one listed as being located in South East Asia and Sufolk.
Just my thoughts on the possible use of Llanbedr as a site for scraping airliners, its a flipping long way to transport the metal to anywhere and belive me the roads to civilsation are long and winding from Llanbedr!
Just my thoughts on the possible use of Llanbedr as a site for scraping airliners, its a flipping long way to transport the metal to anywhere and belive me the roads to civilsation are long and winding from Llanbedr!
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Proplover
Yes I am in the Far East (every year October/April) to avoid the UK winter.
However I am from Wales and learnt to fly at Rhoose and Fairwood Common 30 years ago.
In the past I've paid an active part in Welsh GA and was a founder and committee member of the Cardiff Wales Flying Club.
David Young has gone around in circles to try and avoid a formal planning application for Llanbedr. Planning applications have to be decided inside 8 weeks and a simple application for use of the airfield would have sailed through. However there would be conditions and I suspect that is the problem.
I'm 100% in favour of planning permission for Llanbedr and the re-use of the buildings on site for light industry. What puzzles me is why the limited company that will lease and operate this airfield are not prepared to apply for planning permission in the same way as we all have to if we want to extend our house.
In the time they have wasted they could have had a couple of applications decided or appealed.
We are talking about a national park here,not Newport or Scunthorpe.
I have never met or had contact with Kemble,David Young or the SS.
Kemble are leasing a prime bit of real estate for a song here and should just show willing and jump through the planning hoops.
Drone repair has been mentioned and I'm sure this is where the value in this remote site lies.
However if the airfield is open to GA that has to be good.
Hmmmmm I was thinking the same Vee Tail 1, especially for one listed as being located in South East Asia and Sufolk.
Just my thoughts on the possible use of Llanbedr as a site for scraping airliners, its a flipping long way to transport the metal to anywhere and belive me the roads to civilsation are long and winding from Llanbedr!
Just my thoughts on the possible use of Llanbedr as a site for scraping airliners, its a flipping long way to transport the metal to anywhere and belive me the roads to civilsation are long and winding from Llanbedr!
However I am from Wales and learnt to fly at Rhoose and Fairwood Common 30 years ago.
In the past I've paid an active part in Welsh GA and was a founder and committee member of the Cardiff Wales Flying Club.
David Young has gone around in circles to try and avoid a formal planning application for Llanbedr. Planning applications have to be decided inside 8 weeks and a simple application for use of the airfield would have sailed through. However there would be conditions and I suspect that is the problem.
I'm 100% in favour of planning permission for Llanbedr and the re-use of the buildings on site for light industry. What puzzles me is why the limited company that will lease and operate this airfield are not prepared to apply for planning permission in the same way as we all have to if we want to extend our house.
In the time they have wasted they could have had a couple of applications decided or appealed.
We are talking about a national park here,not Newport or Scunthorpe.
I have never met or had contact with Kemble,David Young or the SS.
Kemble are leasing a prime bit of real estate for a song here and should just show willing and jump through the planning hoops.
Drone repair has been mentioned and I'm sure this is where the value in this remote site lies.
However if the airfield is open to GA that has to be good.
Last edited by Phil Space; 22nd Feb 2010 at 13:34.
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A report on the recent meeting can be found here:
Harmless Sky - Climate, the countryside and landscapes Llanbedr Airfield
Harmless Sky - Climate, the countryside and landscapes Llanbedr Airfield