Llanbedr Airfield
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Perhaps those fine chaps at Kemble should go for a couple of Nuclear Power Stations on the site instead.....planning permission is soooo much easier these days.
But seriously, the real need is to get jobs into struggling areas such as these. I really hope the local community win out in the end.
But seriously, the real need is to get jobs into struggling areas such as these. I really hope the local community win out in the end.
Llanbedr Disgrace
The fine chaps at Kemble know all about the workings of "local authorities".
They have only just seen off their own local planning nerds in yet another gross waste of public time and money.
These "authorities" happily play judge and jury with "our" money yet provide no real input into providing real jobs "other than their own".
Llanbedr has been an active aerodrome since the war,it has never been abandoned,and any activity there would be entirely in keeping with its "airfield" status.
Aircraft arriving and departing the area would have no impact on the National park,and in fact the "real locals " welcome the jobs and business the venture would bring in.
Snowdonia relies on the tourist trade to survive,and this means any travel to the area will consume energy.To suggest that the relatively few aircraft using the facility would upset the "carbon footprint" is a joke.
I suspect that Llanbedr is like Perranporth in Cornwall. That airfield was never abandoned and needed no planning permission to continue in civilian use.
As i see it llanbeder was sold as an airfield,and in planning terms that is what it is,and perhaps Kemble should start landing a few machines there to proove the point.
They may well need permissions for "change of use " for some of the buildings to industrial concerns,but this could not be refused.
I suggest they go back to the people in Cardiff and deal with them direct, as the local authority seem to have less sense than the numerous sheep in the area.
Pobjoy
(no sheep jokes please)
They have only just seen off their own local planning nerds in yet another gross waste of public time and money.
These "authorities" happily play judge and jury with "our" money yet provide no real input into providing real jobs "other than their own".
Llanbedr has been an active aerodrome since the war,it has never been abandoned,and any activity there would be entirely in keeping with its "airfield" status.
Aircraft arriving and departing the area would have no impact on the National park,and in fact the "real locals " welcome the jobs and business the venture would bring in.
Snowdonia relies on the tourist trade to survive,and this means any travel to the area will consume energy.To suggest that the relatively few aircraft using the facility would upset the "carbon footprint" is a joke.
I suspect that Llanbedr is like Perranporth in Cornwall. That airfield was never abandoned and needed no planning permission to continue in civilian use.
As i see it llanbeder was sold as an airfield,and in planning terms that is what it is,and perhaps Kemble should start landing a few machines there to proove the point.
They may well need permissions for "change of use " for some of the buildings to industrial concerns,but this could not be refused.
I suggest they go back to the people in Cardiff and deal with them direct, as the local authority seem to have less sense than the numerous sheep in the area.
Pobjoy
(no sheep jokes please)
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It will be interesting to see how The Kemble people use the site if they manage to succeed.
One thing is for sure and that is GA will not be capable of suporting whatever investment they propose. This is an airfield on the edge of nowhere with high ground to the east and terrible weather for a large part of the year. If Cardiff cannot support a flying club then this place has no chance.
As for industrial use then forget it. The roads to Llanbedr mean it offers little for industry.
I suspect the real plan is to dismantle time expired passenger aircraft but there are better places than this to set up such an operation.
One thing is for sure and that is GA will not be capable of suporting whatever investment they propose. This is an airfield on the edge of nowhere with high ground to the east and terrible weather for a large part of the year. If Cardiff cannot support a flying club then this place has no chance.
As for industrial use then forget it. The roads to Llanbedr mean it offers little for industry.
I suspect the real plan is to dismantle time expired passenger aircraft but there are better places than this to set up such an operation.
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Curious... where I live and fly doesnt seem like 'nowhere' and the WX is no worse and frequently better than the rest of UK.
There are many possible scenarios for Llanbedr, which like the rest of rural Wales has very well defined Winter & Summer seasons. Industrial enterprises which have low environmental impact are possible, and would give much needed local employment. The summer tourist season is an obvious use, with local accomodation, tours, visits etc.
The proximity to superb beaches and mountains and rural countryside, would suggest to me the most fabulous location for a flyers village.
The prospect of living with your aeroplane at your front door on a plot at Llanbedr makes my mouth water.
There are many possible scenarios for Llanbedr, which like the rest of rural Wales has very well defined Winter & Summer seasons. Industrial enterprises which have low environmental impact are possible, and would give much needed local employment. The summer tourist season is an obvious use, with local accomodation, tours, visits etc.
The proximity to superb beaches and mountains and rural countryside, would suggest to me the most fabulous location for a flyers village.
The prospect of living with your aeroplane at your front door on a plot at Llanbedr makes my mouth water.
Llanbedr update
I did a quick phone around this week to find out the latest situation up there in North Wales.
It appears that despite the fact that the "real" locals welcome the airfield opening up a certain individual who is involved with the Snowdon Society is using the society to pursue his own agenda in keeping aviation out.
Also the local planning authority "Snowdonia National Park Authority" having had no real previous experience in dealing with an aerodrome ,used an outside legal planning consultant to deal with the applications from the Kemble team.
However the S N P A were not aware that their legal consultant was the very person who advised the Cotswold Councils in the actions against Kemble.
So there we are, a flawed legal input together with severe lobbying from an employee of the Snowdon Society using the framework of the society without its general members input, and chaos reigns supreme.
The members and officers of the S N P A have now been informed of the "poor" history of their advice,and one hopes this may well help to sort the problem.
Lee Paul now hopes some common sense will enter the fray and progress made.
Llanbedr would make a superb location to visit the stunning local area,and the locals will be very pleased to provide facilities for those doing so to enjoy the visit.
The Kemble team deserve all the support required to progress the situation,and we should be pleased that this "aviation friendly" team are keen to see it through.
Pobjoy
It appears that despite the fact that the "real" locals welcome the airfield opening up a certain individual who is involved with the Snowdon Society is using the society to pursue his own agenda in keeping aviation out.
Also the local planning authority "Snowdonia National Park Authority" having had no real previous experience in dealing with an aerodrome ,used an outside legal planning consultant to deal with the applications from the Kemble team.
However the S N P A were not aware that their legal consultant was the very person who advised the Cotswold Councils in the actions against Kemble.
So there we are, a flawed legal input together with severe lobbying from an employee of the Snowdon Society using the framework of the society without its general members input, and chaos reigns supreme.
The members and officers of the S N P A have now been informed of the "poor" history of their advice,and one hopes this may well help to sort the problem.
Lee Paul now hopes some common sense will enter the fray and progress made.
Llanbedr would make a superb location to visit the stunning local area,and the locals will be very pleased to provide facilities for those doing so to enjoy the visit.
The Kemble team deserve all the support required to progress the situation,and we should be pleased that this "aviation friendly" team are keen to see it through.
Pobjoy
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I have to say that as a long time Welsh GA pilot who was involved decades ago as secretary of the Cardiff Wales Flying Club the GA numbers do not stack up for Llanbedr. If you cannot make GA pay at Cardiff then you cannot make it work at Llanbedr.
This is a remote part of Wales with a small local population. Haverfordwest has a greater catchment area but has never made the grade and the same applies to Caernarfon.
If you want to look at fields that offer better prospects for GA then Shobden and Welshpool spring to mind.
I appreciate what the owners of Kemble have achieved in Gloucestershire but I suspect they either have money to burn or a more commercial intention.
I'm 100% for GA at Llanbedr but would oppose any major commercial or housing on the site and support any opposition to that type of development.
Scrapping airliners has been suggested
This is a remote part of Wales with a small local population. Haverfordwest has a greater catchment area but has never made the grade and the same applies to Caernarfon.
If you want to look at fields that offer better prospects for GA then Shobden and Welshpool spring to mind.
I appreciate what the owners of Kemble have achieved in Gloucestershire but I suspect they either have money to burn or a more commercial intention.
I'm 100% for GA at Llanbedr but would oppose any major commercial or housing on the site and support any opposition to that type of development.
Scrapping airliners has been suggested
What advantages would Llanbedr have for scrapping airliners - once dismantled you've still got move all the bits somewhere so why not use somewhere more accessible??
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Which begs the question why would anyone want it for an airfield?
Norfolk is full of them with good weather. No one wants them.Beccles is a case in point.
Llanbedr has to be the worst location in Wales for private GA.
I speak from experience.
If you want to lease a cheap operational airfield near a lot of people check out Swansea City Council and Fairwood Common.
Norfolk is full of them with good weather. No one wants them.Beccles is a case in point.
Llanbedr has to be the worst location in Wales for private GA.
I speak from experience.
If you want to lease a cheap operational airfield near a lot of people check out Swansea City Council and Fairwood Common.
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Why would anyone want it as an airfield? Well, you could ask the same question about Oban. In both cases the answer is beautiful location. The more pertinent question is, do sufficient numbers of ga owners/operators/fliers want to go there? I think that commercially the answer is no. In the case of Argyll the local authority seem to be keen to subsidise the infrastructure in Wales perhaps not.
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Oban thrived due to the attitude of Paul Keegan and wilted once the heavy handed rule of the local council took over. Classic.
I am sure Llanbedr will do very well under the folk from Kemble who seem to have their finger on the pulse of aeronautical activities.
I am sure Llanbedr will do very well under the folk from Kemble who seem to have their finger on the pulse of aeronautical activities.
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But whatever their success at Kemble I doubt there will be 50 GA movements a day at Llanbedr. The local population is only 1,005 and this includes Llanfair & Llandanwg
Perhaps they are chasing grants fro the EEC for remote area's?
Perhaps they are chasing grants fro the EEC for remote area's?
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Oban could get 50 movements on a fine sunny weekend..OK, I accept that they might struggle on cold winter weekdays but you don't spend zillions on an airfield if all you are hoping to collect are landing fees and the bacon butty takings. I like the idea of low key industrial units in areas of chronic unemployment.
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Most unemployment in this part of Wales is caused by the seasonal nature of the infrastructure. Without going in to the local politics there is a large groundswell of local opinion in this Welsh speaking area opposed to the transient nature of the incomers who buy up cottages that are unoccupied outside the summer season.
Local kids are priced out while large parts of the villages are locked up which does not support the school or local shop/pub.
Wales is like Scotland and Cornwall...ruggedly attractive during the summer but
deserted in winter.
While as a pilot I support any airfield operation I suspect the business model here is more than GA.
Local kids are priced out while large parts of the villages are locked up which does not support the school or local shop/pub.
Wales is like Scotland and Cornwall...ruggedly attractive during the summer but
deserted in winter.
While as a pilot I support any airfield operation I suspect the business model here is more than GA.
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<< I'm 100% for GA at Llanbedr but would oppose any major commercial or housing on the site and support any opposition to that type of development.>>
So you would oppose a flyers village? Why?
So you would oppose a flyers village? Why?
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Full of second home owner and outsiders who make no long term commitment to the community and empty in winter just like all the other local villages
There are two sides of the fence in villages like this. The wealthy retired ( I'm in that bracket but not in Wales) and the young locals who just see the villages being bought up and the rich peoples toys in harbours like Portmadoc where once there were cargo boats carrying slate.
Llanbedr will just be another Portmadoc.
If you live in this part of Wales then I'm sure you appreciate this is not Kemble. Gloucestershire is wealthy.
The local politics here are strong and there is major opposition to the concept of this part of the UK being just another theme park.
If you speak Welsh then phone in to Radio Cymru tomorrow and ask what the opinion is on an English Airpark at Llanbedr. I say English because you'd be hard pushed to find locals who can afford to fly!
There are two sides of the fence in villages like this. The wealthy retired ( I'm in that bracket but not in Wales) and the young locals who just see the villages being bought up and the rich peoples toys in harbours like Portmadoc where once there were cargo boats carrying slate.
Llanbedr will just be another Portmadoc.
If you live in this part of Wales then I'm sure you appreciate this is not Kemble. Gloucestershire is wealthy.
The local politics here are strong and there is major opposition to the concept of this part of the UK being just another theme park.
If you speak Welsh then phone in to Radio Cymru tomorrow and ask what the opinion is on an English Airpark at Llanbedr. I say English because you'd be hard pushed to find locals who can afford to fly!
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 22nd Nov 2009 at 16:50.
Llanbedr "The Future"
Whatever organisation takes on Llanbedr they will have to negotiate with the Snowdon National Park Authority for any "non aviation" use.
A derelict aerodrome provides no employment,and hardly enhances the National Park,and an airpark would not detract from the area,even if this could get permission.
I remember Portmadoc when there was about six boats in the harbour,and they did not create much employment either,as the "slate trade" from the harbour finished before the war.In fact the last commercial ship to be seen on a regular basis was the "Florence Cooke" when she collected explosives from the now "closed" factory at Penryn.
The real locals would be pleased to see activity at Llanbedr, and the
extra employment would be a bonus to the area as it is in "Portmadoc".
Then again perhaps the location would be an ideal place to build an extra prison!!!!
Holiday homes and pleasure boats are a fact of life and will not change whatever happens near Harlech, however if a company is prepared to put some effort into running an operation in the area then we should be pleased that it gives another potential facility,and not prejudge what the locals can afford.
The interesting facts are that the people who were born and live in the area have no problem with the airfield, however a certain individual using the Snowdon Society as a soapbox, is spending a considerable ammount of time lobbying against any progress to the airfields future,and possibly using the Society to persue a personal agenda!!!.
Support Kemble, they are proven GA friendly,and deserve a chance to bring some real jobs into the area.
Pobjoy
A derelict aerodrome provides no employment,and hardly enhances the National Park,and an airpark would not detract from the area,even if this could get permission.
I remember Portmadoc when there was about six boats in the harbour,and they did not create much employment either,as the "slate trade" from the harbour finished before the war.In fact the last commercial ship to be seen on a regular basis was the "Florence Cooke" when she collected explosives from the now "closed" factory at Penryn.
The real locals would be pleased to see activity at Llanbedr, and the
extra employment would be a bonus to the area as it is in "Portmadoc".
Then again perhaps the location would be an ideal place to build an extra prison!!!!
Holiday homes and pleasure boats are a fact of life and will not change whatever happens near Harlech, however if a company is prepared to put some effort into running an operation in the area then we should be pleased that it gives another potential facility,and not prejudge what the locals can afford.
The interesting facts are that the people who were born and live in the area have no problem with the airfield, however a certain individual using the Snowdon Society as a soapbox, is spending a considerable ammount of time lobbying against any progress to the airfields future,and possibly using the Society to persue a personal agenda!!!.
Support Kemble, they are proven GA friendly,and deserve a chance to bring some real jobs into the area.
Pobjoy
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Can Phil Space enlighten me (us) about Swansea. Last time we visited we couldn't even get a cup of tea. It was closed in all respects other than the collection landing fees. A great shame as there have been times in the past when it was friendly, welcoming and had a good food service. With Cardiff no longer GA friendly perhaps there is a strong case for Llanbedt to reopen.
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Maybe i'm being a bit naive,but here goes.
The airfield has" established use".....I understand that after a period of time has elapsed without exercising this "use",this right can be rescinded.-possibly it doesn't relate to Crown Property.....but i'm assuming the Kemble folk were wired-up enough to fly-in for their exploratory negotiations.....that's enough to continue the "use"
The figures may not stack-up at Cardiff, but this can be due to ;-
higher labour rates
higher ground-cost per acre
higher infrastructure-costs
higher Local-Authority Rates/charges
Lower utilisation of peripheral buildings (lower rental-income)
IF (and it's a big IF ) Llanbedr could attract sufficient commercial tenants, they would effectively subsidise the "airfield" side of the site,whilst that side will be attracting business to the specialised commercial services.
Though this airfield IS in "the middle of nowhere" (yup, stayed nearby when it was an active Mil. base) the runways and support buildings are likely to have many years of life left, therefore the costs would be massively lower than a scratch-built facility.
It does concern me that ,from a strategic viewpoint, successive governments have been destroying the option of alternative flying-sites....concentrating all your eggs in a few major baskets seems to be handing the enemy a victorious strike, on a plate The strength of our defence capability surely lay in the fragmented nature of our resources ensuring that any one airfield only held a small proportion of our total resources..
In conclusion,- the "greens" must accept that the prescence of industry (IE jobs that actually enrich the local economy) supplies and maintains the "public-service" infrastructure that allows them the enjoyment of these otherwise hostile,wild and uninhabitable parts of this island. Also, the pollution from any GA activity (including the flying-in of airliners for dismantling! ) is likely to be far less than that created by the former occupants of the site, to whom it would have been a minor consideration.
The airfield has" established use".....I understand that after a period of time has elapsed without exercising this "use",this right can be rescinded.-possibly it doesn't relate to Crown Property.....but i'm assuming the Kemble folk were wired-up enough to fly-in for their exploratory negotiations.....that's enough to continue the "use"
The figures may not stack-up at Cardiff, but this can be due to ;-
higher labour rates
higher ground-cost per acre
higher infrastructure-costs
higher Local-Authority Rates/charges
Lower utilisation of peripheral buildings (lower rental-income)
IF (and it's a big IF ) Llanbedr could attract sufficient commercial tenants, they would effectively subsidise the "airfield" side of the site,whilst that side will be attracting business to the specialised commercial services.
Though this airfield IS in "the middle of nowhere" (yup, stayed nearby when it was an active Mil. base) the runways and support buildings are likely to have many years of life left, therefore the costs would be massively lower than a scratch-built facility.
It does concern me that ,from a strategic viewpoint, successive governments have been destroying the option of alternative flying-sites....concentrating all your eggs in a few major baskets seems to be handing the enemy a victorious strike, on a plate The strength of our defence capability surely lay in the fragmented nature of our resources ensuring that any one airfield only held a small proportion of our total resources..
In conclusion,- the "greens" must accept that the prescence of industry (IE jobs that actually enrich the local economy) supplies and maintains the "public-service" infrastructure that allows them the enjoyment of these otherwise hostile,wild and uninhabitable parts of this island. Also, the pollution from any GA activity (including the flying-in of airliners for dismantling! ) is likely to be far less than that created by the former occupants of the site, to whom it would have been a minor consideration.