Nppl Changes!
Thread Starter
Is your NPPL SSEA Class Rating still valid?
In other words, assuming we're talking about 2 Feb 2008, have you flown, in addition to the 1 hr with the FI, a further 5 hours (of which 4 must have been as PIC) between 2 Feb 2007 and 2 Feb 2008?
If so, then all you have to do is to prove your Rating validity to an Examiner and obtain a new 24 month Rating validity signature in your Certificate of Revalidation. From that moment on you will start on the new system.
People often flew, quite unintentionally, with invalid NPPL SSEA Class Ratings through being victims of the infamous 'rolling validity' scheme. Which is why we were so keen to have fixed dates in licences to refer to - and came up with '12-in-24 + 6-in-12' instead.
In other words, assuming we're talking about 2 Feb 2008, have you flown, in addition to the 1 hr with the FI, a further 5 hours (of which 4 must have been as PIC) between 2 Feb 2007 and 2 Feb 2008?
If so, then all you have to do is to prove your Rating validity to an Examiner and obtain a new 24 month Rating validity signature in your Certificate of Revalidation. From that moment on you will start on the new system.
People often flew, quite unintentionally, with invalid NPPL SSEA Class Ratings through being victims of the infamous 'rolling validity' scheme. Which is why we were so keen to have fixed dates in licences to refer to - and came up with '12-in-24 + 6-in-12' instead.
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BEagle:
Thanks for your reply.
Between the 26 Feb 2007 and today I have flown 21 hours as PIC. Would it be best to get onto the new NPPL revalidation system ASAP, or wait until the new AIC is published?
Thanks for your reply.
Between the 26 Feb 2007 and today I have flown 21 hours as PIC. Would it be best to get onto the new NPPL revalidation system ASAP, or wait until the new AIC is published?
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BEagle.
Since my licence issue Jul 07 I have flown 4hr 45min solo + 9hrs dual (various conversions / tailwheel diff) does this dual / instruction all count in the 12-24 / 6-12 scenario?
If I buy a taildragger not insured for an instructor can I do the 1 hr instructional in a Flight school nose dragger when required?
Since my licence issue Jul 07 I have flown 4hr 45min solo + 9hrs dual (various conversions / tailwheel diff) does this dual / instruction all count in the 12-24 / 6-12 scenario?
If I buy a taildragger not insured for an instructor can I do the 1 hr instructional in a Flight school nose dragger when required?
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Avionista, the point is not that I have run out of things to spend money on in aviation, nor that I can't think of some 'good ideas' for people to do. The point is that I don't think they should be mandatory unless there is a clear, evidenced need. BEagle hasn't responded to this - which makes me suspect that (s)he does indeed understand the point.
I personally enjoyed a trip to ATC and D&D at West Drayton last year. I learnt things about both, especially D&D that I didn't know beforehand. I'd greatly recommend it (although it now means going to Swannick). I would not recommend that if you didn't go then you couldn't revalidate your licence.
Hands up who thinks that we need more regulation and cost in aviation? Well, that'll be the NPPL steering committee then.
I personally enjoyed a trip to ATC and D&D at West Drayton last year. I learnt things about both, especially D&D that I didn't know beforehand. I'd greatly recommend it (although it now means going to Swannick). I would not recommend that if you didn't go then you couldn't revalidate your licence.
Hands up who thinks that we need more regulation and cost in aviation? Well, that'll be the NPPL steering committee then.
Thread Starter
The CAA have now extended the transition period until 30 Jun 2009.
Avionista - there is no need to rush into changing to the new system. Just make sure that your 'rolling validity' period is still valid when you do though! I'm glad that you accepted the safety value of the refresher flying training you had in Oct 2007.
The 20 Nov 2005 CAA Regulatory Review indicated that for 'mainstream' GA, the fatal accident rate was 1.3 per 100000 flying hours, whereas for gliders and microlights, the rate was nearly double at 2.5 per 100000 flying hours. BGA, PFA/LAA and AOPA all accepted the value of refresher flying training - clearly you are one of the wiser folk who also understands that!
Crash one, the new system does not apply to you until you changeover to it! Your SSEA Class Rating is valid in any case until Jul 2008, so I suggest you changeover before then (it shouldn't cost you anything). You then have 24 months from that point onward to do your 60 minutes of flying training. If you buy your own taildragger (enjoy!) and insurance is a problem, you can of course do the flying training in a school tricycle undercarriage aeroplane. So, for example if you changed over on 10 Jun 2008, you would have from then until 9 Jun 2010 to complete your 12h-in-24m of which at least 1h (total) must be with an instructor and 8h as PIC - and you have from 10 Jun 2009 until 9 Jun 2010 to do at least 6h of those 12h.
Avionista - there is no need to rush into changing to the new system. Just make sure that your 'rolling validity' period is still valid when you do though! I'm glad that you accepted the safety value of the refresher flying training you had in Oct 2007.
The 20 Nov 2005 CAA Regulatory Review indicated that for 'mainstream' GA, the fatal accident rate was 1.3 per 100000 flying hours, whereas for gliders and microlights, the rate was nearly double at 2.5 per 100000 flying hours. BGA, PFA/LAA and AOPA all accepted the value of refresher flying training - clearly you are one of the wiser folk who also understands that!
Crash one, the new system does not apply to you until you changeover to it! Your SSEA Class Rating is valid in any case until Jul 2008, so I suggest you changeover before then (it shouldn't cost you anything). You then have 24 months from that point onward to do your 60 minutes of flying training. If you buy your own taildragger (enjoy!) and insurance is a problem, you can of course do the flying training in a school tricycle undercarriage aeroplane. So, for example if you changed over on 10 Jun 2008, you would have from then until 9 Jun 2010 to complete your 12h-in-24m of which at least 1h (total) must be with an instructor and 8h as PIC - and you have from 10 Jun 2009 until 9 Jun 2010 to do at least 6h of those 12h.
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I have a full PPL and do think that the requirement to fly with an instructor every 2 years is a bit onerous. Its maybe OK if you only fly 5 hrs a year but for a high hours pilot it doesn't provide much value.
In my case I fly 75-80 hrs per year in a 200HP single seat aerobatics aircraft. This year I had to find the cheapest dual seat aircraft for hire and fly an hour with an instructor. It cost me about Ł130 and was quite pointless.
Perhaps we could have a rule that only requires the 1 hr with an instructor if you have flown less than 25 hrs in the past year.
ZA
In my case I fly 75-80 hrs per year in a 200HP single seat aerobatics aircraft. This year I had to find the cheapest dual seat aircraft for hire and fly an hour with an instructor. It cost me about Ł130 and was quite pointless.
Perhaps we could have a rule that only requires the 1 hr with an instructor if you have flown less than 25 hrs in the past year.
ZA
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
I have a full PPL and do think that the requirement to fly with an instructor every 2 years is a bit onerous. Its maybe OK if you only fly 5 hrs a year but for a high hours pilot it doesn't provide much value.
Alternatively, do an hour with Uncle Alan.....unless you've got that Krysta loop from the Masters down to a fine art...
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by Beagle
"Alternatively, do an hour with Uncle Alan"
Is he a FI? Or a CRI(SPA)??
Is he a FI? Or a CRI(SPA)??
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while eating a family-sized packet of Walker's Salt & Vinegar. Leaving no crumbs.
How come food always seems to slide insidiously into your posts? Thought you were looking trimmer at Sywell last week, must have been a trick of the light.
BEags,
'Uncle' is FI(R). With several thousand instructional hours to his credit, he STILL hasn't had the restriction removed (last time I heard, anyway...)
TOO
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by The Odd One
How come food always seems to slide insidiously into your posts? Thought you were looking trimmer at Sywell last week, must have been a trick of the light.
Originally Posted by The Odd One
'Uncle' is FI(R). With several thousand instructional hours to his credit, he STILL hasn't had the restriction removed (last time I heard, anyway...)
In an on-topic note, my original NPPL (SSEA) still has a Certificate of Revalidation with a validity date (2004). Given I've been flying on a JAR-PPL (SEP) since 2004, done roughly 150 hours in the past 24 months, have a JAR bi-annual logbook signature from May 2006, what paperwork should I need to get the NPPL paperwork in order?
Last edited by eharding; 2nd Feb 2008 at 21:14.
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An analogy
OK chaps, how about looking at it this way?
If the DVLA decided that from now on you had to do a driving lesson with a professional instructor every couple of years, with the prospect of not having your driving licence renewed if they didn't like your style, would you be as supportive of the idea as you seem to be of this one?
At a guess, probably not.
MB
If the DVLA decided that from now on you had to do a driving lesson with a professional instructor every couple of years, with the prospect of not having your driving licence renewed if they didn't like your style, would you be as supportive of the idea as you seem to be of this one?
At a guess, probably not.
MB
Thread Starter
The training has to be on any Class for which you hold a Class Rating.
So, for 3-axis Microlight pilots, 60 min differences training on flexwings would be fine. Or perhaps some Microlight seaplane differences training?
For SSEA Rating holders, some tailwheel conversion and/or UH aeros - again OK.
If you hold Microlight and SSEA Class Ratings, mix 'n match the above as you wish. The idea is to improve and/or extend your flying skills, not to trap you.
So, for 3-axis Microlight pilots, 60 min differences training on flexwings would be fine. Or perhaps some Microlight seaplane differences training?
For SSEA Rating holders, some tailwheel conversion and/or UH aeros - again OK.
If you hold Microlight and SSEA Class Ratings, mix 'n match the above as you wish. The idea is to improve and/or extend your flying skills, not to trap you.
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The idea is to improve and/or extend your flying skills, not to trap you.
Somebody please explain the point of making it compulsory (with the associated paperwork and potential new offences, etc). How will it improve flying? I mean, if somebody is forced to fly with an instructor who wouldn't otherwise do it they're not really take much away from teh event, are they?
I'm not trying to be difficult, honest
, I'm just trying to understand what will be the law and what will be the guidance to Their Worships when somebody eventually gets nabbed by CAA Enforcement Branch for flying with an invalid licence.MB
Last edited by MadamBreakneck; 3rd Feb 2008 at 13:45. Reason: To correct some gibberish typing
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The Reval
Madam Breakneck
All I can say to you is that since the inception of the revalidation flight I have never experienced resentment. In some cases it is interpreted beforehand as a kind of test - it is not!
I probably do a couple of such flights each week. I always stress that it is not a test before we fly. I fully involve the rating holder in deciding on the content. They are then usually open about their needs once they understand it is not a test and that there is to be no other outcome other than a benefit.
Together we are usually able to identify a weakness and I hope in an interesting way work on that. I'm always pleased by and have obviously done my job when the comment, walking back to the clubhouse, is "I enjoyed that".
All I can say to you is that since the inception of the revalidation flight I have never experienced resentment. In some cases it is interpreted beforehand as a kind of test - it is not!
I probably do a couple of such flights each week. I always stress that it is not a test before we fly. I fully involve the rating holder in deciding on the content. They are then usually open about their needs once they understand it is not a test and that there is to be no other outcome other than a benefit.
Together we are usually able to identify a weakness and I hope in an interesting way work on that. I'm always pleased by and have obviously done my job when the comment, walking back to the clubhouse, is "I enjoyed that".
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BEagle,
You mentioned:
"one reply copied one hundred times? Not so. As stated in the Consultation Response Document CRD 01-06:"
Is that the correct number - can't find a CRD 01-06 on the CAA web site.
Very best,
XA
You mentioned:
"one reply copied one hundred times? Not so. As stated in the Consultation Response Document CRD 01-06:"
Is that the correct number - can't find a CRD 01-06 on the CAA web site.
Very best,
XA
Thread Starter
No it isn't! I was stating a general point; it is not difficult to spot orchestrated responses.
The percentage of addressees - including the suspected orchestrated respondents - who objected to the revised revalidation criteria was less than 1.5%.
The percentage of addressees - including the suspected orchestrated respondents - who objected to the revised revalidation criteria was less than 1.5%.
Last edited by BEagle; 3rd Feb 2008 at 20:49.
At the risk of getting flamed, I’ve never seen so many starving people arguing over the type of icing on the cake that has been placed before them.
If you don’t like what you have to do under the NPPL, then go JAAPPL.
Its probably all going to change under EASA anyway, so keep your powder dry until then.
Also, as an ex driving instructor, who has had quite a few pupils through my hands for retraining, a bi-annual “check drive” with an ADI would be no bad thing for the majority of drivers.
If you don’t like what you have to do under the NPPL, then go JAAPPL.
Its probably all going to change under EASA anyway, so keep your powder dry until then.
Also, as an ex driving instructor, who has had quite a few pupils through my hands for retraining, a bi-annual “check drive” with an ADI would be no bad thing for the majority of drivers.
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Kestrel, I don't do flaming - but the points remain the same and I still haven't had a considered answer to any of them:
1. We now have different regimes for people flying the same (microlight)aircraft dependent on whether they hold an older (PPL) or newer (NPPL) licence. Recent Microlight pilots have no choice whether to hold an NPPL or not - it's the sole licence available.
2. It adds cost for no demonstrated benefit. No-one has produced any evidence to say that microlight NPPL holders have any more accidents than old microlight PPL holders. No one has produced any evidence that an instructor flight every two years would reduce the accident rate for either group.
3. The revalidation requirements for current microlight pilots are quite simple - 5hrs in the previous 13 months. This is not complicated. Of the 2500 or so NPPL licences issued, some 2000 or so are microlight pilots. The BMAA did not support the addition of an instructor flight. We seem to have 'harmonised' 90% of pilots with 10%.
I have no problem with putting forward some good practice in flying. Without trying I could think of half a dozen 'good ideas' that wold be useful to do as a pilot - none of them merit being made mandatory.
I strongly believe that anything that adds cost to our flying needs to be justified. Properly, with facts and figures.
How many people on the NPPL steering group actually fly on an NPPL?
1. We now have different regimes for people flying the same (microlight)aircraft dependent on whether they hold an older (PPL) or newer (NPPL) licence. Recent Microlight pilots have no choice whether to hold an NPPL or not - it's the sole licence available.
2. It adds cost for no demonstrated benefit. No-one has produced any evidence to say that microlight NPPL holders have any more accidents than old microlight PPL holders. No one has produced any evidence that an instructor flight every two years would reduce the accident rate for either group.
3. The revalidation requirements for current microlight pilots are quite simple - 5hrs in the previous 13 months. This is not complicated. Of the 2500 or so NPPL licences issued, some 2000 or so are microlight pilots. The BMAA did not support the addition of an instructor flight. We seem to have 'harmonised' 90% of pilots with 10%.
I have no problem with putting forward some good practice in flying. Without trying I could think of half a dozen 'good ideas' that wold be useful to do as a pilot - none of them merit being made mandatory.
I strongly believe that anything that adds cost to our flying needs to be justified. Properly, with facts and figures.
How many people on the NPPL steering group actually fly on an NPPL?