Use of FAA, JAA licences, and N reg aircraft

[sternone]

Can you imagine of all the Formula one drivers had to pass a racing test for each country they race in and re do a currency test for wet days and dry days and cold days or windy days ...? Or each Soldier had to pass a medical for each country they operate in and undergo firearms training in each country they visit... Madness....... Well wouldnt want our troops trained in American ways so scratch that last comment .....

Or some parts of the world who put their driving wheel on the other side of the car ? Imagine they would drive also on the other side of the road!!

I don't have a feeling that your statements make any sense, the world isn't (fortunately) one country.

[IO540]

Why the hell cant we have just one global standard that says this person is physically fit and is capable of flying anywhere in the world.

Elitism and job creation.

[selfin]

Two minor points here:

The FAA is not authorised to convert foreign licences. It is authorised to issue a certificate on the basis of a foreign license (14 CFR 61: § 61.75, 61.77, 61.123 (h), 61.153(d)(3).)

The UK CAA does not issue flight crew licences but rather it grants them. JAR-FCL makes reference to issuing licences.

Furthermore 14 CFR 61, § 61.75(b)(4) ['...applicant for piggyback private pilot certificate...'] "Holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current medical certificate issued by the country that issued the person's foreign pilot license."

[BackPacker]

Furthermore 14 CFR 61, § 61.75(b)(4) ['...applicant for piggyback private pilot certificate...'] "Holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current medical certificate issued by the country that issued the person's foreign pilot license."

Oh man. I hold a UK CAA-issued JAR-FCL conforming PPL but a Dutch-issued JAR-FCL conforming medical. With that combination I can fly an aircraft registered in any JAA state, but now you're saying it's not good enough, in this combination, to get an FAA piggyback license?

[TwinkieFlyer]

The Flight Review is a requirement IF you need the FAA license to fly. That said, if you are flying in the country where another license was issued by that country, you don't need the FR because you don't need the FAA license. If you couldn't fly an N-reg without the FAA license, you need the FR for sure.

Most don't get them, I have even offered to do the FR for free, when pilots actually needed them, and they didn't want to do it. The reasoning is that the FAA isn't going to show up on the ramp.

[selfin]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Oh man. I hold a UK CAA-issued JAR-FCL conforming PPL but a Dutch-issued JAR-FCL conforming medical. With that combination I can fly an aircraft registered in any JAA state, but now you're saying it's not good enough, in this combination, to get an FAA piggyback license?

The requirement laid down in 14 CFR 61.75(b)(4) is to hold a current medical certificate issued by the same country as the pilot license. Shall we go wild and tell the FAA the UK is not actually a country? And what's the difference since the UK has given away its sovereignty? It's an unforunate regulation to be trapped under, like so many others; perhaps an appeal should be made under §11.61. For the time being, unless the FAA can somehow issue an exemption, the easiest course of action is surely to obtain either an FAA medical certificate or a UK one.

[TwinkieFlyer]

Oh, and if I understood IO540's question, no the 3 TO and landings don't have to be at the same time, they just have to be within the last 90 days. What trips up some is that both the TO and the LNDG have to be night to count night, not just one or the other.

[IO540]

the 3 TO and landings don't have to be at the same time, they just have to be within the last 90 days.

Yes.

What trips up some is that both the TO and the LNDG have to be night to count night, not just one or the other.

That's a very good question!! I am suprised it isn't asked more often; maybe because it's relevant only to people who are doing a departure shortly before sunrise, which almost nobody does in GA.

I don't think the takeoff and landing have to be on the same flight.

[DLT1939]

And the landings have to be to a full stop (FAR 61.57(b)(1)). Touch and go's don't count as they would for UK currency.

Also, you need a radio telephone operator permit (and the aircraft a radio station authorisation) issued by the Federal Communications Commission to operate the radio in an N reg aircraft outside the US.

Finally, be aware of Article 140, Air Navigation Order 2005 which prohibits the taking of photographs from or performing aerial work in a foreign registered aircraft over the UK without the permission (readily given) by the Secretary of State for Transport. This extends to paying an instructor for a BFR. Solution? Fly to Le Touquet and do it there!

[Orbifly]

Dear all,


I do not enjoy the "piggyback" name so much, so I'll use "restricted PPL" or "Foreign-based PPL" instead if you do not mind. :-)


As already said above, the holder of a foreign-based US PPL can use the privileges of that restricted PPL if he holds :

- a valid foreign license (on which is based the US one)
- a valid medical
- a Flight Review within the last 24 calendar months, (endorsed in his logbook)


If you want to fly an N-Reg airplane, you need :

- an FAA pilot certificate (standalone or foreign-based)

OR

- you can fly an N-Reg airplane if you hold the license issued by the country which is below your wings, or any license accepted by that country, IF THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES DO ACCEPT THAT RULE.


Which means in France, you can fly an N-Reg airplane with your French-issued PPL. (Europe is not considered as a country, so you are limited to the country that issued your PPL)

But some countries may refuse that (for example, it seems like Belgium has imposed US Certificates to fly N-Reg airplanes in Belgium).

And caution : even if you are Instrument Rated in Europe, YOU CAN ONLY FLY VFR WITH YOUR N-REG AIRPLANE, unless you passed the IFP knowledge test and had your foreign IR added on your restricted FAA PPL.


This may seem curious, but that makes sense.
There are some rules that apply to you when you fly an N-Reg airplane under IFR rules (example : VOR checks every 30 days, etc.). You cannot know these rules and the specific US regulation if you only passed a JAA IR.

Moreover, do not forget that when you fly an N-Reg airplane, you fly "under the FAA responsibility". For example, in case of accident, you have to notice the FAA and if needed make a written report... which many owners tend to forget in Europe.


Happy landings,

Alexandra
ORBIFLY
www.orbifly.com
FAA training in Europe

[TwinkieFlyer]

"I don't think the takeoff and landing have to be on the same flight."

No, they don't. Can be different flights, different days, you just have to have three of each in the last 90 days. Full stop for night, touch and goes ok for day, unless tailwheel, then full stop on both.

[IO540]

But some countries may refuse that (for example, it seems like Belgium has imposed US Certificates to fly N-Reg airplanes in Belgium).

Do you have a reference for that, Orbifly?

I don't doubt you - I am genuinely interested.

As far as I can see, Belgium might be able to do that only for its own citizens, without breaching ICAO.

One hears these things around the place. Obviously they won't be in the national AIP; they will be buried deep in the local aviation law.

Other examples: Irish CAA banning FAA license holders flying under the privileges of the FAA Class 3 medical. Denmark banning N-reg from being parked there. Spain banning its own citizens from exercising the privileges of any non-JAA license in Spanish airspace. Etc.

[Orbifly]

Dear IO540,

This was confirmed by one of our Belgian IFR students. When he bought his brand new Cirrus 22, he had to get a foreign-based FAA PPL in order to fly it in Belgium.

I did not look at any information about that because I had no interest for that at this time, but if you wish I can check, that is an interesting point.

I would say that Belgium might be able to do that only for all pilots that hold a JAA PPL issued by them. I do not think it is linked to citizenship, but depends on the issuance of the license.

In some other countries it is the exact opposite : see Monaco for example, you can fly VFR or IFR on their national-registered airplanes with your FAA license, without having to get a local license.

In fact, countries have full authority on which licenses they accept to fly their own airplanes, or which airplane can be flown with their own licenses (at least over their country).

But if they are very hard, the other country can apply reciprocity on rights.... and limits.

Amivolement,

Alexandra
ORBIFLY

[Orbifly]

Just one question : are you sure about what you said at the end of your post, about Spain ?

We have several students in Spain flying N-Reg airplanes with their FAA license, but it seems to be fully legal down there.

Best regards.

Alexandra
ORBIFLY

[IO540]

Alexandra, no I am not sure at all about any of that. That is why whenever this comes up I ask for a reference.

Belgium could have limited their licenses to Belgian aircraft; that is possible but it would be unusual.

However, this kind of thing should be in the open and be well documented. It is not enough for (e.g.) a pilot to ask some official somewhere and be told he can't do such and such.

[Orbifly]

I understand your scepticism :-)

But that Belgian example is not more surprising than the example of Monaco, which is more "free" than usual.

As you want a "fix" reference, I wrote today to the Belgian authorities.
We'll see if they confirm.

Happy landings.

Alexandra

[selfin]

Is there a summary (with precise references) of these peculiar national restrictions levied against US certificate holders?

[IO540]

Alexandra, I think you will find, from your description, that Monaco accepts FAA crew licensing and certification in their own registered aircraft. As such it is no different to the other "tax haven" registries e.g. Caymans, Bermuda, Isle of Man.

Unfortunately, all of these impose restrictions according to weight (generally min 5700kg) or pilot residence (IOM requires 5700kg+, or residence).

Selfin - I have never seen such a summary. There is a limit to how far it could be pushed, or the degree to which it can ever be enforced against residents, because of the often vague nature of aviation. Under ICAO, no European country can stop somebody flying into and around Europe.

If for example Country X banned its own citizens exercising the privileges of a foreign license, what would happen if such a citizen got a job with a foreign airline flying a 747 into that country?? You would have to make an exemption.

There are ways to do all this but they get messy very fast, which is why I think some if not all of these "restrictions" are just rumour.

[dublinpilot]

This was confirmed by one of our Belgian IFR students. When he bought his brand new Cirrus 22, he had to get a foreign-based FAA PPL in order to fly it in Belgium.

Are you sure it's not just a case of practicalities? Who wants an aircraft such as an SR22, and be restricted to flying within such a small country as Belgium? If you fly an SR22, you need to have the licences necessary to travel significant distances if you want to make use of it.

dp

[DFC]

Under ICAO, no European country can stop somebody flying into and around Europe

Thankfully that is not true.

How do you think that certain airlines with poor standards can be banned from Europe?

Under ICAO, a country can require aircraft based in that cuntry to be placed on it's register and pilots flying it's aircraft in that country to be licensed by or validated by that country.

The US is a perfect example.........bring a G reg to the US with your UK PPL and if you want to keep it there you will have to both put the aircraft on the N register and obtain an FAA pilot certificate.

Regards,

DFC