End of VFR

[llanfairpg]

SVFR is an exemption from (full) IFR, many years ago it was rumoured it might be changed to SIFR

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by ShyTorque

... the "let out" clause which allows us to make a "visual contact flight" under IFR in Class G is effectively under exactly the same terms as an SVFR clearance ...

I don't think that is quite true SVFR seems to be

PPL - 10 km viz
PPL IMC - 3 km viz
CPL with an IMC - not restricted to 3km or better (and also not restricted to the IMC 1800m)
IR holder- to be where SVFR comes into line with the ISOS part of the UK IFRs, which is equally applicable in or out of controlled airspace and is different than the US 'contact approach' (noted only because of the way it is phrased in the quote above)

[TheOddOne]

IFR at night

...so I'm flying along in Class G at night, maintaining 2,200' (obstruction 1200' within 5 NM so complying with IFR.) I encounter cloud at 2,000', so I descend to 1900' to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I'm no longer compliant with IFR. Say I have a PPL with night rating, no other ratings.
I don't believe that this flight is now strictly legal.

To remain legal, I'd have to have an IMCr or better and remain at 2,200', but in IMC.

Completely potty, in my view.

(or, I could descend to 1900' and claim that I am descending to land at an aerodrome in accordance with normal aviation practice. Yeah, right)

TheOddOne

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by TheOddOne

...so I'm flying along in Class G at night, maintaining 2,200' (obstruction 1200' within 5 NM so complying with IFR.) I encounter cloud at 2,000', so I descend to 1900' to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I'm no longer compliant with IFR.
TheOddOne

No, as a PPL you can legal fly IFR (and in some IMC - as in clear of cloud above 3000 feet but not so clear that you meet the VFR cloud clearance requirements, or with just 3 km viz in an area that requires 5 for VMC) - So in your case you just descend to 1900 as proposed, you are clear of cloud, in sight of surface, viz greater than 800m and less than 3000 MSL you ARE complying with the IFRs and so long as the viz is 3km you CAN do this on a UK PPL.

The combination of these rules makes the requirement for night to be IFR for the pilot a silly situation, as you can pretty much fly just as you would in the daytime under VFR (main realistic exception being you actually do need to fly quadrantials above the TA at night, where as for a day VFR pilot it is only recommended. And of course you can not fly in any control areas as a PPL at night.

[llanfairpg]

An old hand many years ago who was actually a bit of a cowboy told me you either fly in it, or out of it but scratching around in the bit in between is where the accidents occur. I have seen his words come true many times over the last 30 years, bibles and fools perhaps, eh?

[IO540]

An old hand many years ago who was actually a bit of a cowboy told me you either fly in it, or out of it but scratching around in the bit in between is where the accidents occur. I have seen his words come true many times over the last 30 years, bibles and fools perhaps, eh?

The "cowboy" was exactly right, in that a flight must be planned as one of the following

1) VFR - in this case you must keep VMC no matter what, and turn back if you can't, or - if you get snookered on all sides by weather - do what is euphemistically called in PPL training as a "precautionary landing"

2) IFR - in this case the flight is planned and navigated as IFR, and if you get a view out of the window, that is a bonus

I have done 2) on every flight (except local sightseeing bimbles with passengers) since the day I got my PPL. It is the best and safest way to fly from A to B. But it needs an instrument qualification and a suitably equipped plane.

The dangerous bit is a flight planned as VFR and then you pop into cloud with no real plan. Climbing is not enough because terrain can rise much faster than you can climb, and a 180 isn't so clever either because the terrain could be anywhere.

[llanfairpg]

The dangerous bit is a flight planned as VFR and then you pop into cloud with no real plan. Climbing is not enough because terrain can rise much faster than you can climb, and a 180 isn't so clever either because the terrain could be anywhere.

And it is this bit that needs the focus of attention in PPL instrument training--not flying a NDB letdown(IMHO)

[TheOddOne]

And it is this bit that needs the focus of attention in PPL instrument training

...quite right and it now does. 1 hour Ex 19 now, all focussed on doing that 180. NO NDB letdowns, no change of level at all.

We also do a bit of VOR work but NOT under the hood, just as an aid to visual navigation, kept completely separate from flight without outside visual reference...

TheOddOne

[Bill.Cumberland]

In the UK you can comply with IFR at night by flying at or below 3000' amsl, remaining clear of cloud, with the surface in sight (new wording as of Mar 07) and in a flight visibility of at least 800m. Fine.

Choice of IFR or VFR -

At night an aircraft shall fly in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone.

Inside a control zone an aircraft shall fly in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

ATCO Question: Is special VFR flight only available to aircraft landing or taking off from an airport in the control zone or is it available to aircraft transitting the zone?

[DFC]

Arriving, departing, transiting or operating within the zone all qualify if you can not comply with the IFR requirements.

Where did you get the 800m visibility from?

Regards,

DFC

[kiwi chick]

"Day" over here is described as:

(1) the beginning of morning civil twilight, which is when the centre
of the rising sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon; and

(2) the end of evening civil twilight, which is when the centre of the
setting sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon:

So.... we can fly VFR without a night rating between Morning Civil Twilight & Evening Civil Twilight.

Having said that, most schools or clubs that I've flown at have an in-house rule about being on the ground 30 mins before ECT and not getting airborne until 30 minutes after MCT.

And Special VFR?

Special VFR flight means a VFR flight cleared by an ATC unit to operate within controlled airspace in meteorological conditions below visual meteorological conditions:

Which here for Airspace is 5km vis, 2km horizontally clear of cloud & 1,000 feet vertically clear of cloud - or 500 feet vertically clear of cloud if inside Control Zone. For Aerodromes is 1500 foot cloud base and 5 km vis.

Special VFR is given ONLY during the day and only to a minimum 600 foot cloud base and 1500 metres vis.

Is is that same over there?

[DFC]

Special VFR is given ONLY during the day and only to a minimum 600 foot cloud base and 1500 metres vis.

There are differences. One being that contrary to ICAO, the UK does not require all flights to cruise at an absolute minimum of 500ft. That is where the 600ft requirement comes from under your rules and ICAO i.e. if the cloud is less than 600ft then how can you ever cruise at 500ft and not be in the cloud.

The daytime limit is your own local rule.

Regards,

DFC

[Bill.Cumberland]

Hi DFC,

800m is included in Rule 33 (RoA Regulations 2007) and was an addition along with the reversal of "within sight of the surface" to "with the surface in sight" I believe. March 2007.

Your answer to the sVFR Q was always my understanding as well. It has been disputed by an ATCO. I'd like chapter and verse if possible.

Thanks for correcting my "transiting".

Bill.

[Ryan5252]

Time to blow the dust of this thread,

In the nicest possible way...

In the UK you can fly IFR at night in VMC without an IR. In Ireland, you can only fly at night under IFR, which they require you to have an IR for.

Prove it!
May well be that legislation has changed since your post DP but had a 'debate' with an instructor a few weeks back on this and asked him to produce legislation showing that in ROI, in VMC conditions (sight of surface, out of cloud etc etc) at night I cannot fly without an instrument rating.

Im still waiting.

[BackPacker]

Time to blow the dust of this thread,

You shouldn't have bothered.

Irish AIP, ENR 1.2, para 2.8:

2.8. VFR Flights at Night
2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.

[dublinpilot]

And before Ryan & his instructor state that they can fly at night in Ireland under IFR so long as they stay in VMC, this too is prohibited in Ireland.

IAA Personal Licensing Order 2000. The relevant section is S19 (1):

A person shall not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in the State under instrument flight rules unless such person holds a valid instrument rating -
(a) issued or validated by the Authority and endorsed in or deemed by the
Authority to be included in the licence held by such person or in the
validation of such licence, as the case may be, and
(b) appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown.

There is a similar paragraph restricting other registrations operating under IFR in Ireland when the pilot does not have an IR.

The leglisative reference for Backpackers post is IAA Rules of the Air Order 2004, section is 38( 8 )(iii).

dp

[BackPacker]

Done & dusted, I'd say.

[david viewing]

I've noticed that the phrase "End of VFR" is more commonly used in the Republic than in the UK. A call to (in the Republic at least) ATC will always yield an "End of VFR" time expressed as an actual time and avoid any of the uncertainties related above. You need PPR for all Irish airfields except perhaps Shannon anyway.

[Ryan5252]

IAA Personal Licensing Order 2000. The relevant section is S19 (1):

and

The leglisative reference for Backpackers post is IAA Rules of the Air Order 2004, section is 38( 8 )(iii).

Much obliged, will put this forward on Saturday and see how get on.

Thanks all for going through the hassle of finding this.

[BackPacker]

Took me less than five minutes to open the Irish AIP on the Eurocontrol website and browse the index of the GEN and ENR section. Once you know the structure of the AIP it's not that hard to find this kind of info.