Best Value for Learning to Fly with a Cost Focus
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Best Value for Learning to Fly with a Cost Focus
Okay, so I don't want to upset too many people with this question but I want to learn to fly as cheaply as possible. I am hoping to eventually move towards an ATPL but this will be over a few years.
I do know an experience UK pilot who will mentor me in the UK once I have the PPL qualification but in the meantime I would like to do one of those 21 day all-inclusive courses.
The problem is that USA prices have increased significantly recently. I had considered Debenair but never got a response to my email. I also emailed Orlando Flight Training but the reply was in very poor English and if they can't get that bit right, what about the rest?
I am hoping to learn to fly this March 2008 and would appreciate your views and/or contact details.
Happy New Year!
Greg
I do know an experience UK pilot who will mentor me in the UK once I have the PPL qualification but in the meantime I would like to do one of those 21 day all-inclusive courses.
The problem is that USA prices have increased significantly recently. I had considered Debenair but never got a response to my email. I also emailed Orlando Flight Training but the reply was in very poor English and if they can't get that bit right, what about the rest?
I am hoping to learn to fly this March 2008 and would appreciate your views and/or contact details.
Happy New Year!
Greg
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They are taking profit about the low dollar rate.. alot of their customers are from outside the USA, do you really think they don't know what we are paying for dollars or PPL/ATPL training in the UK/Europe ? Oh yes, they do know it, they know it better than most of us know.
My personal view is to take some initiaton lessons to see if this is really the thing you wan't, learn as much as you can, and start going for it when you have enough money to do it in 1 time. If you wan't to go for an ATPL i don't see any use in getting a PPL first and waiting years and years before starting the ATPL, for the ATPL it's the same i would advise, crack your savings, start saving or get a loan like most ATPL students seems to do, and do it in 1 time.
Remember that at this time there is no shortage for pilots, there are still alot of pilots searching for a job. Flight schools haven't been so buzy since ages... there is a lot of competition studying at this moment!!!
A good thread is the one from Backpacker...i guess you have read it already http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278995
My personal view is to take some initiaton lessons to see if this is really the thing you wan't, learn as much as you can, and start going for it when you have enough money to do it in 1 time. If you wan't to go for an ATPL i don't see any use in getting a PPL first and waiting years and years before starting the ATPL, for the ATPL it's the same i would advise, crack your savings, start saving or get a loan like most ATPL students seems to do, and do it in 1 time.
Remember that at this time there is no shortage for pilots, there are still alot of pilots searching for a job. Flight schools haven't been so buzy since ages... there is a lot of competition studying at this moment!!!
A good thread is the one from Backpacker...i guess you have read it already http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278995
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Yes. A great Post indeed. I would like to get the JAA PPL qualification and just wondered if I could achieve the same in Australia or New Zealand or anywhere else cheaper with good March weather.
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Try giving Debenair a phone call, I think they're having internet problems at the moment. When I got my PPL with them two years ago they were definitely the best value place I could find and I was generally quite satisfied with the service and quality of instruction.
That said, I'm not sure if they're still offering JAA training. Phone them and find out. +1 321-385-3999
That said, I'm not sure if they're still offering JAA training. Phone them and find out. +1 321-385-3999
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Apparently they have been bought out by a US student recently but you are right in that they don't offer JAA training. I'll keep them on record for hours building.
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Thanks for the compliments gents. Nice to hear that some people do read that (very long) article.
Couple of notes:
- As sternone says, if your eventual aim is an ATPL, it is worth considering saving up and doing everything in one go. If you do it in two steps, you lose a lot of money because, for starters, you've got to remain current in between.
- If you think you're being ripped off, check out the website and consider the FAA PPL prices vs. the JAA PPL prices. They use the same instructors, the same aircraft and the same facilities. It's only the syllabus that's different (but that doesn't lead to a price difference) and the examiners (R/T and skills) need to be JAA ones (which makes them more expensive, but that's only a few hundred dollars in total)
- To the best of my knowledge, currently there's only one school in Canada, one in California and two or three in Florida that offer direct JAA training. (Check the CAA document to make sure.) Any other school that claims to do JAA training will do a circuitous route, where you get another PPL first and then convert that to a JAA one. That would be the case for any school located in Australia or NZ.
Oh, and I saw an ad for a new JAA school in, I think, Arizona, here on PPRuNe a while ago. Looked promising but I never checked it out in detail.
- If all you want is a JAA ATPL, you need to know that the entry for a JAA CPL is an ICAO PPL. It doesn't have to be a JAA PPL. So if you get an Australian or FAA PPL, then that's good enough for your JAA CPL/ATPL. Plus, the CAA allows people on an FAA PPL (and maybe on an Australian PPL too, I don't know) to fly a G-reg, VFR without too much hassle. Recently someone claimed that you can even take that G-reg abroad on your FAA PPL, again VFR, but I simply do not know enough about this subject to confirm or deny. Disadvantage is that any ratings that you add to your FAA PPL, like IR or ME, are NOT valid in a G-reg. You need to find an N-reg for that.
- My initial response from OFT was, well, not incorrect English, but it looked like it had been put together in great haste. I guess they receive dozens of enquiries by e-mail daily, all asking for what's essentially already mentioned on the website. So they've got a standard text they send out. But it would have helped if they would have proofread that text, and structured it a bit better, I agree. Once you start asking specific things I find you get a far more decent answer, although it might take a few days. Me personally, I wouldn't mind going there again. But I've also heard a lot of good things about AAA.
- If you want to start training in March, and you want to go to the USA, better start hurrying now. Particularly the visa application may take two months from start to finish, and you should also count on some serious studying time - it took me a month to go through all the books, confuser, practice exams etc, dedicating about one to two hours each night. As I said in the article, do not rely solely on the evening groundschool that the school may offer.
Couple of notes:
- As sternone says, if your eventual aim is an ATPL, it is worth considering saving up and doing everything in one go. If you do it in two steps, you lose a lot of money because, for starters, you've got to remain current in between.
- If you think you're being ripped off, check out the website and consider the FAA PPL prices vs. the JAA PPL prices. They use the same instructors, the same aircraft and the same facilities. It's only the syllabus that's different (but that doesn't lead to a price difference) and the examiners (R/T and skills) need to be JAA ones (which makes them more expensive, but that's only a few hundred dollars in total)
- To the best of my knowledge, currently there's only one school in Canada, one in California and two or three in Florida that offer direct JAA training. (Check the CAA document to make sure.) Any other school that claims to do JAA training will do a circuitous route, where you get another PPL first and then convert that to a JAA one. That would be the case for any school located in Australia or NZ.
Oh, and I saw an ad for a new JAA school in, I think, Arizona, here on PPRuNe a while ago. Looked promising but I never checked it out in detail.
- If all you want is a JAA ATPL, you need to know that the entry for a JAA CPL is an ICAO PPL. It doesn't have to be a JAA PPL. So if you get an Australian or FAA PPL, then that's good enough for your JAA CPL/ATPL. Plus, the CAA allows people on an FAA PPL (and maybe on an Australian PPL too, I don't know) to fly a G-reg, VFR without too much hassle. Recently someone claimed that you can even take that G-reg abroad on your FAA PPL, again VFR, but I simply do not know enough about this subject to confirm or deny. Disadvantage is that any ratings that you add to your FAA PPL, like IR or ME, are NOT valid in a G-reg. You need to find an N-reg for that.
- My initial response from OFT was, well, not incorrect English, but it looked like it had been put together in great haste. I guess they receive dozens of enquiries by e-mail daily, all asking for what's essentially already mentioned on the website. So they've got a standard text they send out. But it would have helped if they would have proofread that text, and structured it a bit better, I agree. Once you start asking specific things I find you get a far more decent answer, although it might take a few days. Me personally, I wouldn't mind going there again. But I've also heard a lot of good things about AAA.
- If you want to start training in March, and you want to go to the USA, better start hurrying now. Particularly the visa application may take two months from start to finish, and you should also count on some serious studying time - it took me a month to go through all the books, confuser, practice exams etc, dedicating about one to two hours each night. As I said in the article, do not rely solely on the evening groundschool that the school may offer.
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Noted with thanks. Do you have the AAA website? Sounds obvious but Google is throwing out some rubbish. Has anyone ever used or heard about Lanseria Flight Centre in South Africa?
Where can I find a list of CAA/JAA approved schools? I've tried Lasors but to no avail.
Where can I find a list of CAA/JAA approved schools? I've tried Lasors but to no avail.
Last edited by Greg2041; 2nd Jan 2008 at 21:20.
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For the CAA standards document which lists approved FTOs, look in the article that I wrote. It's a fairly large pdf directly from the CAA website. It is NOT something you will find in LASORS or the ANO.
AAA is Anglo-American Aviation, http://www.flyaaa.com/
Edited to say that the CAA standards document listing all approved FTOs seems to have moved. I found it here now:
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=2854
AAA is Anglo-American Aviation, http://www.flyaaa.com/
Edited to say that the CAA standards document listing all approved FTOs seems to have moved. I found it here now:
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=2854
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Why not South Africa? No Visa hassle and afaik the SA-PPL is recognized in the UK too, without any conversion needed.
There are flight schools in SA that offer 5-week PPL courses. Most on traditional Cessnas/Pipers, but also some on light twin seater planes which are cheaper.
I'm also thinking about doing my PPL, maybe in the USA or SA, haven't decided yet.
There are flight schools in SA that offer 5-week PPL courses. Most on traditional Cessnas/Pipers, but also some on light twin seater planes which are cheaper.
I'm also thinking about doing my PPL, maybe in the USA or SA, haven't decided yet.
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There are flight schools in SA that offer 5-week PPL courses. Asrian
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Have you had a look at welshpool or Highland in Inverness?
Both on the par with US prices and the beer will be better in the UK.
And if you do over run it's not such a pain to get back for a long weekend to complete.
It is more than possible to do a 3 week ppl in the UK my record with someone who had all the exams done before he started was 2 weeks start to finish. He wasn't some hot shot kid either. Just always booked first lesson of the day and one after lunch about 2. Then picked the last lesson up at 6 if available and he, or me wasn't tired (or his brother wanted to go to the pub). Solo in three days. Made all the difference having the exams out of the way.
Both on the par with US prices and the beer will be better in the UK.
And if you do over run it's not such a pain to get back for a long weekend to complete.
It is more than possible to do a 3 week ppl in the UK my record with someone who had all the exams done before he started was 2 weeks start to finish. He wasn't some hot shot kid either. Just always booked first lesson of the day and one after lunch about 2. Then picked the last lesson up at 6 if available and he, or me wasn't tired (or his brother wanted to go to the pub). Solo in three days. Made all the difference having the exams out of the way.
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Weather in Scotland & accommodation
Greg2041, you'd be surprised at the weather in Inverness. It gets the "east coast" weather and is generally quite dry and not too windy.
I live down the Great Glen and the weather at Inverness is invariably better than it is down here.
They're a really nice bunch up there and they're now advertising that they've either bought or are in the process of buying a house for students to live in at quite a cheap rate, which would make it easier for you to stay up there.
'Phone them up and ask about the accommodation. I was there just before Christmas and saw their flyer for it.
I live down the Great Glen and the weather at Inverness is invariably better than it is down here.
They're a really nice bunch up there and they're now advertising that they've either bought or are in the process of buying a house for students to live in at quite a cheap rate, which would make it easier for you to stay up there.
'Phone them up and ask about the accommodation. I was there just before Christmas and saw their flyer for it.
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wx isn't much of a prob in INV. I will be lucky to do 15 instrument approaches a year into INV and most of them are because its dark and I can't cancel IFR.
HOTAC consits of a local BnB which is 15 quid a night if you get the none tourist season.
Don't really know the instructors but they seem ok.
Its a cracking place to learn even after 900 hours instructing in the area i never got bored of looking out the window. Which i frequently do after 10 mins anywhere south of polehill.
HOTAC consits of a local BnB which is 15 quid a night if you get the none tourist season.
Don't really know the instructors but they seem ok.
Its a cracking place to learn even after 900 hours instructing in the area i never got bored of looking out the window. Which i frequently do after 10 mins anywhere south of polehill.
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I've been to Welshpool many times and while it would be a nice place to learn from, the weather there is maybe 75% of the time sub VFR and certainly "sub ab initio PPL learning".
Mind you, I lost some 90% of my booked PPL lessons down in the south east...
To compare USA with the UK, one would need to be living in a hut next to the UK airfield, and flying every day. Almost nobody actually does this, which is the main reason why a UK PPL normally takes a year or so while a US one takes ~ 6 weeks. Others reasons include better organisation, less aircraft downtime, etc.
A South African PPL is worth no more and no less than an FAA PPL - the difference is that you can get an N-reg plane and get worldwide privileges that way (and maintain it to FAA requirements right here) whereas I have not come across anybody doing that with a SA plane.
It's actually potentially quite interesting to look into operating say an Australian plane in the UK. Risk-wise (the risk of foreign reg having action against them at some future date) it would be the same as FAA. They do have interesting certification options in Australia - probably the 3rd biggest GA scene in the world, after USA and UK.
Mind you, I lost some 90% of my booked PPL lessons down in the south east...
To compare USA with the UK, one would need to be living in a hut next to the UK airfield, and flying every day. Almost nobody actually does this, which is the main reason why a UK PPL normally takes a year or so while a US one takes ~ 6 weeks. Others reasons include better organisation, less aircraft downtime, etc.
A South African PPL is worth no more and no less than an FAA PPL - the difference is that you can get an N-reg plane and get worldwide privileges that way (and maintain it to FAA requirements right here) whereas I have not come across anybody doing that with a SA plane.
It's actually potentially quite interesting to look into operating say an Australian plane in the UK. Risk-wise (the risk of foreign reg having action against them at some future date) it would be the same as FAA. They do have interesting certification options in Australia - probably the 3rd biggest GA scene in the world, after USA and UK.
Well, I started flying on 25 March and went solo on 29 March. Q X-C on 12 April and PPL Test on 19 April.
That was back in 1968 when it was a 35 hour course. But I did it Cranfield, so it ought to be possible to do the whole thing in 5 weeks in the UK these days.
Admittedly we did fly 6 days a week - and I did my Q X-C on Good Friday!
I note that my PPL Test was on 19 April - yet the Board of Trade issued my PPL a mere 4 days later.....
That was back in 1968 when it was a 35 hour course. But I did it Cranfield, so it ought to be possible to do the whole thing in 5 weeks in the UK these days.
Admittedly we did fly 6 days a week - and I did my Q X-C on Good Friday!
I note that my PPL Test was on 19 April - yet the Board of Trade issued my PPL a mere 4 days later.....
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HAC at Shobdon
Cessna C152
Dual
£99.75
PPL
£81.50
Syndicate
£65.80
Piper PA28 - Archer II
Dual
£122.70
PPL
£108.60
Syndicate
£89.35
Only problem is no one has told them the war finished in 1945.
Great flying country at a real club airfield and if you get plenty of the local cider down you, you wont be bothered about cost at all!
Cessna C152
Dual
£99.75
PPL
£81.50
Syndicate
£65.80
Piper PA28 - Archer II
Dual
£122.70
PPL
£108.60
Syndicate
£89.35
Only problem is no one has told them the war finished in 1945.
Great flying country at a real club airfield and if you get plenty of the local cider down you, you wont be bothered about cost at all!
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And to follow BEagles's thought - I flew 44 hours in 19 days (Mon-Fri only) in June 1979, on RN EFTS on the Bulldog out of Topcliffe, in good VFR only, except for about 3-4 hours of IFR intro. Good airframe serviceablity/availability and likewise for your FI and you could do 45 hours in a calendar month.