Mode S Mar 08
Joined: May 2003
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From: Yorkshire
Because FF, I have yet to meet an IR holder who does not have Mode S. The IR holder is virtually guaranteed to be flying there own aircraft and will have made sure they complied with the rules a long time ago.
I have frequently rented my aircraft to people with IRs, including many ATPLs. There are many IR holders who do not own aircraft.
I take your general point about the "club" rental fleet, however.
And as Rod1 ponts out, the transition period does not apply to VFR only.
FF
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Then you are exposed to a very unique group.
I maintain that the regular flying non commercial IR holder has access to their own aircraft, either a properly equipped group aircraft or private direct ownership. Or it seems rental of yours which I assume has mode S if they are exercising the full privilege of the IR?
I maintain that the regular flying non commercial IR holder has access to their own aircraft, either a properly equipped group aircraft or private direct ownership. Or it seems rental of yours which I assume has mode S if they are exercising the full privilege of the IR?
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From: Yorkshire
Then you are exposed to a very unique group.
And please tell me - this is a genuine question, I do not pretend to know the answer - which privileges of the IR require mode S currently, outside of flight within the designated airspace which I believe applies only to the LTMA at present ?
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S. You cant get out of the UK south under IFR (airways) without passing through the LTMA (with a couple of exceptions in the far west).
I know plenty of airline pilots who fly on their day off, mostly VFR permit type aircraft. It is pretty rare to find an airline pilot who goes private IFR touring. Bus mans holiday and all that. Not to say I am sure they don't exist.
FF are you a member of PPLIR? If you are ask them for the stats, they will be an eye opener.
I know plenty of airline pilots who fly on their day off, mostly VFR permit type aircraft. It is pretty rare to find an airline pilot who goes private IFR touring. Bus mans holiday and all that. Not to say I am sure they don't exist.
FF are you a member of PPLIR? If you are ask them for the stats, they will be an eye opener.
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From: Surrey
I also believe Belgium, Holland, France, and Germany require Mode S for IFR flight in their whole FIRs (that is the notified airspace is much bigger than in the UK) - which is what finally motivated me to put hand in pocket (up until the end of last year an individually agreed temporary exemption was possible - but needed to have a date you were going to have the Mode S installed)
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From: UK
The proposal to increase the Notified Mode S Airspace beyond the London TMA is, I believe, with DAP at the moment.
p.s. there's no level cut off for Mode S in the LTMA, it is the complete vertical and lateral extent.
p.s. there's no level cut off for Mode S in the LTMA, it is the complete vertical and lateral extent.
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From: UK
Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S.
indeed.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S. You cant get out of the UK south under IFR (airways) without passing through the LTMA (with a couple of exceptions in the far west)
At the risk of repeating myself.....
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From: UK
Okay, maybe I'm being exceptionally dim, but I still don't understand (at least as far as the UK is concerned) what FL100 has to do with anything Mode S related?
Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?
Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
“Okay, maybe I'm being exceptionally dim, but I still don't understand (at least as far as the UK is concerned) what FL100 has to do with anything Mode S related?”
”Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?”
IFR is not my main focus but I was under the impression that Mode S was required for IFR flights at FL100 and above now. In March 2012 it becomes compulsory below FL100 in CAS. The above only applying to UK airspace.
Rod1
”Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?”
IFR is not my main focus but I was under the impression that Mode S was required for IFR flights at FL100 and above now. In March 2012 it becomes compulsory below FL100 in CAS. The above only applying to UK airspace.
Rod1
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
My interpretation is the same as Rods which prompted my comment about IFR flight in CAS affecting the IMCR flyers in due course as non of the normal IMCR fleet seems to be mode S equipped whereas the IR flyers seem to be better equipped.
It also led me to make the comment that for those who don't own or syndicate in an IFR touring airways flying without ModeS is next to impossible as above FL100 and around the LTMA Mode S is required. It further reflects on my comment that the average IMCR type rental hack does not have Mode S.
Any clearer?
It also led me to make the comment that for those who don't own or syndicate in an IFR touring airways flying without ModeS is next to impossible as above FL100 and around the LTMA Mode S is required. It further reflects on my comment that the average IMCR type rental hack does not have Mode S.
Any clearer?
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From: EuroGA.org
These "do I need Mode S" debates amaze me.
There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever. And this includes the occassional Class G transit.
There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.
For IFR, and I don't mean the "UK style informal IFR in Class G", the picture gets quite complicated and there is really only one option and that is to install a Mode S transponder.
I've just picked up a very good Eurocontrol presentation which I can email to anybody who sends me an email with their email address.
There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever. And this includes the occassional Class G transit.
There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.
For IFR, and I don't mean the "UK style informal IFR in Class G", the picture gets quite complicated and there is really only one option and that is to install a Mode S transponder.
I've just picked up a very good Eurocontrol presentation which I can email to anybody who sends me an email with their email address.
Joined: May 2006
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From: UK
The only Mode S Notified Airspace in the UK is still just the London TMA.
I've checked the AIP (GEN 1.5.3) and the ANO (Schedule 5 Article 20(2)) and they only refers to carriage of Mode S transponders within Notified Mode S Airspace. There is no AIC updating this that I can see.
There is a general requirement to carry a transponder above FL100 inside or outside UK CAS but unless it's in Mode S Notified Airspace it would appear A/C is fine probably until 2012.
IO, there's nothing wrong with clarifying information that is misunderstood. If I turn out to be wrong at least my misconceptions will have been clarified.
I've checked the AIP (GEN 1.5.3) and the ANO (Schedule 5 Article 20(2)) and they only refers to carriage of Mode S transponders within Notified Mode S Airspace. There is no AIC updating this that I can see.
There is a general requirement to carry a transponder above FL100 inside or outside UK CAS but unless it's in Mode S Notified Airspace it would appear A/C is fine probably until 2012.
IO, there's nothing wrong with clarifying information that is misunderstood. If I turn out to be wrong at least my misconceptions will have been clarified.
Last edited by Roffa; 4th January 2008 at 16:57.
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From: Midlands
IO540,
Do you have to be quite so rude about us VFR flyers?
“There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever.
There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.”
How do you define VFR bumbling, and VFR scud running? I flew up to Wick last summer in 3h6m from the midlands and sat at FL100 over the mountains. I was not alone in making the trip; around 70 LAA types flew up for the fly in. I associate bimblimg to be flying in the immediate area and scud running to be flying dangerously low to avoid bad weather. This is not the sort of flying the majority of the VFR only LAA touring fleet take part in.
Rod1
Do you have to be quite so rude about us VFR flyers?
“There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever.
There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.”
How do you define VFR bumbling, and VFR scud running? I flew up to Wick last summer in 3h6m from the midlands and sat at FL100 over the mountains. I was not alone in making the trip; around 70 LAA types flew up for the fly in. I associate bimblimg to be flying in the immediate area and scud running to be flying dangerously low to avoid bad weather. This is not the sort of flying the majority of the VFR only LAA touring fleet take part in.
Rod1
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I was referring to the type of flying one has to do to remain outside of controlled airspace in Europe generally.
There is a great deal of CAS down to say 1000ft. If flying under that isn't scud running then I'd like to know what it is
No intention of being rude about anybody - that is you labelling what I say.
I do plenty of VFR bimbling too, and the occassional low level flight.
There is a great deal of CAS down to say 1000ft. If flying under that isn't scud running then I'd like to know what it is
No intention of being rude about anybody - that is you labelling what I say.
I do plenty of VFR bimbling too, and the occassional low level flight.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: UK
What IS a big deal, I think, is the possible imposition of Mode-S on day/VFR-only machines; I know of a couple with no electrics whatsoever. It does seem that common sense might actually break out and these will be forever exempt from the requirement.