Mode S Mar 08
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Mode S Mar 08
I understand that while most VFR flights in the UK will be exempted from mode S until 2012, certain VFR flights in the UK will require mode S from March next year.
Is the wording of the rules for Mode S from March 08 published anywhere yet?
Is the wording of the rules for Mode S from March 08 published anywhere yet?
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At the recent meeting with the CAA at PFA HQ this was not mentioned. The CAA presentation is at;
http://www.pfa.org.uk/
The important point is that if you do not have to have a Transponder today, you will not need one until at least March 2012.
I wrote a summary of the meeting;
Mode S Summary of meeting with CAA 17th Nov 07
Originally the CAA intended to force all flying machines to install Mode S. This approach has been abandoned by the CAA, and the following is the future:
Phase 1
The present rules on the carriage of transponders will continue to apply only to;
Public transport flights
Flights at and above FL100
IFR flights in CAS below FL100
Flights in airspace notified in the UK AIP (London only at this time)
The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.
This summarizes the situation today and is a done deal.
Phase 2
This phase is about to enter consultation and is not a done deal. NONE of the following will come in before March 2012, if at all.
Mode S will be required for;
Aircraft making VFR flights within controlled airspace below FL100
Powered aircraft making international flights
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created.
If we take each point in turn;
VFR flights within controlled airspace;
This was clarified as not mandatory. Each ATC unit will be able to clear non Mode S aircraft through subject to workload and aircraft based at strips will be able to negotiate a written exception.
Powered aircraft making international flights;
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created;
This will be laid out in the consultation, but again you will not have to comply until March 2012. Applying for a TMZ will follow the existing airspace change procedure.
To sum up the CAA position -
It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S. Post March 2012, it depends on the outcome of the meeting in December and the Consultation process on Phase 2
Phase 3 (you are not going to like this)
ADS-B may well form part of a future phase 3. No timeframe, and remember, if you get a Mode S unit with “extended Squatter” (no idea of spelling) you may be OK. You will need an approved GPS to be wired in to your Transponder.
Rod1
http://www.pfa.org.uk/
The important point is that if you do not have to have a Transponder today, you will not need one until at least March 2012.
I wrote a summary of the meeting;
Mode S Summary of meeting with CAA 17th Nov 07
Originally the CAA intended to force all flying machines to install Mode S. This approach has been abandoned by the CAA, and the following is the future:
Phase 1
The present rules on the carriage of transponders will continue to apply only to;
Public transport flights
Flights at and above FL100
IFR flights in CAS below FL100
Flights in airspace notified in the UK AIP (London only at this time)
The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.
This summarizes the situation today and is a done deal.
Phase 2
This phase is about to enter consultation and is not a done deal. NONE of the following will come in before March 2012, if at all.
Mode S will be required for;
Aircraft making VFR flights within controlled airspace below FL100
Powered aircraft making international flights
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created.
If we take each point in turn;
VFR flights within controlled airspace;
This was clarified as not mandatory. Each ATC unit will be able to clear non Mode S aircraft through subject to workload and aircraft based at strips will be able to negotiate a written exception.
Powered aircraft making international flights;
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created;
This will be laid out in the consultation, but again you will not have to comply until March 2012. Applying for a TMZ will follow the existing airspace change procedure.
To sum up the CAA position -
It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S. Post March 2012, it depends on the outcome of the meeting in December and the Consultation process on Phase 2
Phase 3 (you are not going to like this)
ADS-B may well form part of a future phase 3. No timeframe, and remember, if you get a Mode S unit with “extended Squatter” (no idea of spelling) you may be OK. You will need an approved GPS to be wired in to your Transponder.
Rod1
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Thank you.
This was the part that I was really interested in. Looks like I'll still be able to fly to the UK as far as the CAA is concerned 
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
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Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?
The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.
The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.
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Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?
I'd have thought that the folk who would want to do that have already invested in appropriate equipment for their aircraft and further investment in a Mode-S transponder is fair play, - in the scheme of things.
I'm involved in a Group with a fairly aged PA28-151 with what was for the time the standard 2 x Comm, 2 x Nav (inc ILS) 1 x ADF 1 x Transponder, OMI receiver. None if this is really fit now for serious Nav in CAS, in my view. We do IMC training on it but of course the practice (and test) ILS are actually conducted as SVFR if we go to an airport in CAS.
The other PA28s I fly are generally Warrior IIIs with more up-to-date fit including Mode-S as standard. In an £90k+ a/c, it's not a lot.
If we ever update the avionics in the -151, no doubt we'll include a Mode-S along the way. No big deal, really, maybe a Garmin 430 which will neatly do everything! (except the ADF, which will sadly be history by then, I'm told).
What IS a big deal, I think, is the possible imposition of Mode-S on day/VFR-only machines; I know of a couple with no electrics whatsoever. It does seem that common sense might actually break out and these will be forever exempt from the requirement.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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oddone, you are indeed lucky to be exposed to such forward thinking organisations. Not one of the three flying schools that I am involved with have a Mode S equipped aircraft and on my home field off 38 aircraft mine is the only one with mode S.
For those with an IMCR or IR wanting to do an approach in CAS which is the majority of airfields in the UK then a Mode S transponder is needed from this year.
Maybe this is going to have a greater effect on the IMCR than the proposal to bin it?
For those with an IMCR or IR wanting to do an approach in CAS which is the majority of airfields in the UK then a Mode S transponder is needed from this year.
Maybe this is going to have a greater effect on the IMCR than the proposal to bin it?
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bose-x
My experience is similar. The only aircraft which seem to have mode s are privately owned aircraft which get used for IFR work and a very small number of LAA types.
If you were to do an ILS approach into say EMA, would they even know that you had only mode c? My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?
Rod1
My experience is similar. The only aircraft which seem to have mode s are privately owned aircraft which get used for IFR work and a very small number of LAA types.
If you were to do an ILS approach into say EMA, would they even know that you had only mode c? My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?
Rod1
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Originally Posted by Rod1
If you were to do an ILS approach into say EMA, would they even know that you had only mode c?
Rod1
Rod1
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"My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?"
Interesting question for any ATCers out there.
Anyone slept off their hangover yet?
SB
Interesting question for any ATCers out there.
Anyone slept off their hangover yet?
SB
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France without Mode S
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
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"My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?"
However, in terms of which ATC units can actully display Mode S data to the controller, only the London Terminal Control Centre (LTCC) has the capability right now. Again, a programme to bring it in to London Area Control Centre and the Prestwick Centre (which is due to open in 2010 and subsumes Manchester & Scottish Area Control Centres) is planned. These are all En Route or Terminal Control Centres.
For airfield approach services not served by LTCC, the provision of Mode S to the controllers will be a local policy decision and will either require the procurement of a Mode S capable radar system and radar displays by the airport ATC provider, or for them to procure Mode S capable radar displays and buy in the data feed from a provider who has Mode S radar.
£££££££££££££ whichever route you take !!!!
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The experts.
The CAA have written an article for the LAA mag on, Light Aircraft which is very similar to the summary I wrote on the meeting on the 17th, but goes into more detail. If you can get your hands on a copy, have a read. If not I have requested the article be put on the LAA web site at WWW.LAA.UK.COM (note the odd address). I hope it will be up this week.
Rod1
The CAA have written an article for the LAA mag on, Light Aircraft which is very similar to the summary I wrote on the meeting on the 17th, but goes into more detail. If you can get your hands on a copy, have a read. If not I have requested the article be put on the LAA web site at WWW.LAA.UK.COM (note the odd address). I hope it will be up this week.
Rod1
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Originally Posted by bose-x
For those with an IMCR or IR wanting to do an approach in CAS which is the majority of airfields in the UK then a Mode S transponder is needed from this year.
Originally Posted by Rod1
The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.
Just checking, as I'll be wanting to do exactly that in a C only equipped aircraft after March.
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My comment is based on the meeting with the CAA on the 17th, but to be honest my interest is in VFR and Bose is the resident IFR man. The info was on the PFA web site but that is in transition to LAA so I cannot post a link.
Rod1
Rod1
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I have just had a long chat with John Banks at the CAA regarding international flights and Mode S. Formal responses have been received from France and The Netherlands
and verbal comments from others.
France
No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. Flights VFR in CAS (BCD) will require mode C minimum (as now). This situation may change, but not before 2009.
The Netherlands
No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. You will be restricted 1200ft except in designated transponder-free zones.
The Swiss
Have delayed implementation beyond 2008, but no firm data as to when or what.
Belgium
Yet to consult so could not confirm.
I have asked John if we could produce a guide to “Touring Europe and Mode S” – as the CAA is our representatives in Europe, and he is considering this.
Rod1
and verbal comments from others.
France
No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. Flights VFR in CAS (BCD) will require mode C minimum (as now). This situation may change, but not before 2009.
The Netherlands
No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. You will be restricted 1200ft except in designated transponder-free zones.
The Swiss
Have delayed implementation beyond 2008, but no firm data as to when or what.
Belgium
Yet to consult so could not confirm.
I have asked John if we could produce a guide to “Touring Europe and Mode S” – as the CAA is our representatives in Europe, and he is considering this.
Rod1
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Bose-X,
Not at all sure why you've focussed on the IMCR in your post, as for at least four years this will absolutely affect IR holders more (no flying through the LTMA with mode Charlie only). If you already have a mode C txpdr (and how else could you be currently flying an IAP inside CAS with an IR or IMCR), there is a 4-year upgrade transition period. See the following :-
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/Mode_S_June07_A4.pdf
Happy days ...
FF
Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?
The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.
The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/Mode_S_June07_A4.pdf
Happy days ...
FF
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Because FF, I have yet to meet an IR holder who does not have Mode S. The IR holder is virtually guaranteed to be flying there own aircraft and will have made sure they complied with the rules a long time ago. I have had Mode S for more than 2 years.
The average club rental that scrapes by as IFR capable with some creative thinking is what the average IMCR flyer is flying on the whole and I have seen very few of these Mode S equipped.
It is my understanding that the transition period is for VFR not IFR.
The average club rental that scrapes by as IFR capable with some creative thinking is what the average IMCR flyer is flying on the whole and I have seen very few of these Mode S equipped.
It is my understanding that the transition period is for VFR not IFR.
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Quote from the CAA document
“IFR flight in CAS below FL100”
Implemented March 2008, with a transition period to March 20012
It is in FF’s link and was mentioned in the meting on the 17th. (you do have to have Mode C under the existing rules though.)
Rod1
“IFR flight in CAS below FL100”
Implemented March 2008, with a transition period to March 20012
It is in FF’s link and was mentioned in the meting on the 17th. (you do have to have Mode C under the existing rules though.)
Rod1