IMCR - The Petition - Please give your support
Join Date: Feb 2002
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IIl,
There is no IFR in Ireland without an IR. So those without an IR can only use an airway under VFR.
Now here's the thing....All our airspace above FL75 is class c (with some minor off shore exceptions). It'd not like the UK, with tunnels through otherwise Class G airspace. So if you're above FL75 you're controlled....it then doesn't really matter whether you want to follow the airway though that class C, or want to take your own route right across them!
In any case, most GA confines itself to lower than this for a simple reason. In a country where 1 hour in a PA28 /C172 will take you from one side to the other, and little over 2 hours from top to bottom, there is rarely much benefit in going much higher than FL75
However there is nothing to stop someone using those airways under VFR in VMC with just a PPL.
I hope that answers your question
dp
There is no IFR in Ireland without an IR. So those without an IR can only use an airway under VFR.
Now here's the thing....All our airspace above FL75 is class c (with some minor off shore exceptions). It'd not like the UK, with tunnels through otherwise Class G airspace. So if you're above FL75 you're controlled....it then doesn't really matter whether you want to follow the airway though that class C, or want to take your own route right across them!
In any case, most GA confines itself to lower than this for a simple reason. In a country where 1 hour in a PA28 /C172 will take you from one side to the other, and little over 2 hours from top to bottom, there is rarely much benefit in going much higher than FL75
However there is nothing to stop someone using those airways under VFR in VMC with just a PPL.
I hope that answers your question
dp
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Join Date: May 2001
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Well over 600 signatures now and still running at nearly 50 a day.
Please, if you have not done so, give your support.
and if you have, tell as many others about it as you can.
Please, if you have not done so, give your support.
and if you have, tell as many others about it as you can.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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The good news is that Pilot Magazine have included a link to the petition in their latest monthly 'e newsletter'.
http://www.pilotweb.aero/newsletterT...e/default.aspx
http://www.pilotweb.aero/newsletterT...e/default.aspx
Unfortunately it is unlikely to achieve a lot...
Information I have is that, if we're lucky, the UK IMCR may soldier on until 2012-ish, after which the EASA intention is that its privileges will cease to exist.
So, what is most definitely needed is a concerted effort to define a 'Class 2 IR', much as I've outlined.
One big point - we must avoid at all costs the idea that only 'CAA Examiners' will conduct the Class2 IR Skill Test. Current FEs with approval to conduct IMCR flight tests must remain acceptable - and instruction must be permitted at current RFs which instruct for the UK IMCR.
Information I have is that, if we're lucky, the UK IMCR may soldier on until 2012-ish, after which the EASA intention is that its privileges will cease to exist.
So, what is most definitely needed is a concerted effort to define a 'Class 2 IR', much as I've outlined.
One big point - we must avoid at all costs the idea that only 'CAA Examiners' will conduct the Class2 IR Skill Test. Current FEs with approval to conduct IMCR flight tests must remain acceptable - and instruction must be permitted at current RFs which instruct for the UK IMCR.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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we tried this as part of the IRWG work and it got nowhere. We tried to have non CAA examiners conduct the IR test the same as with the CPL.
We also tried to get IR training to be conducted at standard schools and clubs rather than at the classic airline schools.
While your Class 2 IR is laudable it won't get anywhere. How can you justify a rating that requires a lower standard and less training to allow pilots to CAS along with a normal IR holder.
What you have proposed is just an IMC by another name and it won't wash.
Outside of saving the IMCR our energies are much better spent on making the existing IR more desirable.
We also tried to get IR training to be conducted at standard schools and clubs rather than at the classic airline schools.
While your Class 2 IR is laudable it won't get anywhere. How can you justify a rating that requires a lower standard and less training to allow pilots to CAS along with a normal IR holder.
What you have proposed is just an IMC by another name and it won't wash.
Outside of saving the IMCR our energies are much better spent on making the existing IR more desirable.
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Outside of saving the IMCR our energies are much better spent on making the existing IR more desirable.
Most PPL holders either don't have or can't justify the £12,000 that it would cost for them to get one.
Those people with an IR are either fortunate enough to have a spare £12k or are flying commercially or have invested £12k in the hope that it will enable them to fly commercially.
And, bose-x, that simply won't wash with current IMCR holders!
What is needed is a concerted viewpoint regarding the Class 2 IR - and this must come from industry throughout the EU.
The CAA have, for far too long, used the IR as their 'final test for suitability' for prospective commercial pilots, rather than as purely a test of instrument flying skills.
'Commercial' flying should be the province of the CPL world - and the 'full' IR should top up the Class 2 for such people.
In the RAF, there is the Green (Unrestricted) IR, which is equivalent to the 'full' JAR-FCL IR, and there is the White IR. Which is roughly equivalent to the Class 2 I propose. Which works well.
What is needed is a concerted viewpoint regarding the Class 2 IR - and this must come from industry throughout the EU.
The CAA have, for far too long, used the IR as their 'final test for suitability' for prospective commercial pilots, rather than as purely a test of instrument flying skills.
'Commercial' flying should be the province of the CPL world - and the 'full' IR should top up the Class 2 for such people.
In the RAF, there is the Green (Unrestricted) IR, which is equivalent to the 'full' JAR-FCL IR, and there is the White IR. Which is roughly equivalent to the Class 2 I propose. Which works well.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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You are preaching to the choir here Beagle. I fully agree with what you say.
The military multi tier system works because they have a vast support infrastructure that revolves around very strict rules that are adhered to.
However the airlines for whom EASA pretty much exists in realty do not agree with you. They want a level playing field when flying under IFR, they won't share airspace with people they see as being inadequately trained. Like it or not it will be the airlines that get there way.
600/18,000 people signing a petition is not going to budge the airlines in anyway sadly.
The military multi tier system works because they have a vast support infrastructure that revolves around very strict rules that are adhered to.
However the airlines for whom EASA pretty much exists in realty do not agree with you. They want a level playing field when flying under IFR, they won't share airspace with people they see as being inadequately trained. Like it or not it will be the airlines that get there way.
600/18,000 people signing a petition is not going to budge the airlines in anyway sadly.
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They want a level playing field when flying under IFR, they won't share airspace with people they see as being inadequately trained. Like it or not it will be the airlines that get there way.
The main aim must be to stop people such as the European Cockpit Association playing the bully boy and trying to drive GA under!
IAOPA, EAS and others must lobby FCL001, if a Class 2 IR is ever going to happen. So they need their members throughout the EU to speak up, not just a few of us in the UK.
IAOPA, EAS and others must lobby FCL001, if a Class 2 IR is ever going to happen. So they need their members throughout the EU to speak up, not just a few of us in the UK.
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I would share the concern about inadequately qualified people having access to the airways system and any two tier IR proposal would need to address that.
Essentially though, BEAGLE's proposal is an attempt to reinvent the wheel. What we have already with the IMC rating is pretty much ideal as it is. It IS obviously a much more limited qualification than the IR, but it is ideally suited to the needs of those who hold it.
My view is that we shouldn't be trying to re-invent the wheel and that instead, we should be trying to stop the perfectly good wheel that we have on our cart already being nicked.
Essentially though, BEAGLE's proposal is an attempt to reinvent the wheel. What we have already with the IMC rating is pretty much ideal as it is. It IS obviously a much more limited qualification than the IR, but it is ideally suited to the needs of those who hold it.
My view is that we shouldn't be trying to re-invent the wheel and that instead, we should be trying to stop the perfectly good wheel that we have on our cart already being nicked.
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JS I think you need a letter to Downing Street, remember the IMC rating and its advantages means nothing to non flyers and I do not think your opening script is comprehensive enough for non flyers.
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If the UK IMCr can soldier on until 2012, that's a whole lot better than October 2008 which was as I recall, the starting point.
That hopefully will allow time to plan for a future in GA IMC flying.
Whether that means IMCr uk only, Euro IMCr, IR Lite, IR slightly heavier (FAA / ICAO style) or IR something else short of the over burdensome JAA IR, at least it's time to be able to influence future events.
Happy Christmas All
That hopefully will allow time to plan for a future in GA IMC flying.
Whether that means IMCr uk only, Euro IMCr, IR Lite, IR slightly heavier (FAA / ICAO style) or IR something else short of the over burdensome JAA IR, at least it's time to be able to influence future events.
Happy Christmas All