Are Instructors in short supply?

[llanfairpg]

I cannot agree that the airlines will not want you. When this scheme was introduced I for one thought we are going to get some real no chancers in the right seat. I have to say apart from the one or two odd characters which has nothing to do with hours, only poor interviewers and selection, the standard is very good and the airlines know this. However if their is a shortage of first officers its more than likely that an experienced FO will get prefeference as you need a body of people to promote into the left hand seat either in the near future or in a year or so.

You could look at the problem the other way round;

How does sitting by a student for another say extra 450 hours make you a better airline pilot that a pilot who was specificallyl trained for airline flying even though he may only have around 250 hours

[znww5]

SAS said "There speaketh the PPL's." Well, could that possibly be because this is a PPL forum

As for the notion of there being plenty of money around for people to fly I can only ask - so where are they?

Assuming that there are plenty of rich (ie 'quality' ) students, what are they going to do the minute they qualify? If they are canny business people, they will either buy an aircraft or a share in one and wave goodbye to the school, avoiding the hassle of trying to hire through a club and minimum hire-time limits.

There was one very well heeled student training at the same time as me and he had bought his brand new aircraft even before he had qualified. Sure, he pops in now and again for a cuppa and a chat - and he'll probably be back for his revalidation, but the club isn't going to make any more money out of him than they do out of any other student. It seems to me that you'll need an awful lot of high-rollers to replace the plethora of working Joe's who fly as often as they can afford.

The problem with flight instruction is that it is squeezed at one end by high hardware operating costs and at the other by students with finite resources. Sadly it is the instructor who is expected to take up the financial slack.

[GASH !]

Does the 'hour building' instructor really exist? I'm pretty sure that most FI's wised up years ago that the way to secure an airline job is simply to purchase a type rating.

Surely nobody gets into instucting now thinking it's a fast track to an airline job? For every job that requires a few hundred hours of SEP time there's 20more that require you simply to purchase a type rating.

As for the experience counting for something, I agree that it's pretty worthless in the current market. Of the FI's I work with, several have over 2000 hours with hundreds of hours of multi IFR time. None of them expect to be able to move into an airline job based on this. None of it counts for anything compared to a freshly minted 200 hour guy prepared to pay £25k to get into Ryanair.

This is the reason instructors are in short supply, it's no longer a viable route to a multi crew job. So taking this into consideration what you now end up with is instructors getting into the industry because they want to do the job, and enjoy doing the job. The fact that there's fewer of them is no bad thing.

[VFE]

The problem with flight instruction is that it is squeezed at one end by high hardware operating costs and at the other by students with finite resources. Sadly it is the instructor who is expected to take up the financial slack.

But the cost of learning to fly has hardly risen in the last eight years. If schools had put their prices up TOGETHER in line with inflation then maybe they and their instructors would be a little better off? Having said that, there's been a drop in all PPL(A) licence issues of around 1000 in the UK over the last 4 years - amazing considering prices have been almost frozen. General aviation is certainly in decline - an interesting thread would be what to do about it?! I honestly do not know how some schools continue to operate with such tight profit margins.

VFE.

[portsharbourflyer]

Quote:
Yes there are fewer PPL(H) holders, but we in the fixed wing world could learn an awful lot from the Heli training side.
No we couldn't learn a thing it is a totally different situation to the fixed wing world; the price of an hour in an R22 is 280 an hour, heli instructors I understand get around £40 an hour, the average PPL(A) instructor is on £20 an hour flown. So for the heli world the extra 20 pounds an hour makes the training price change from £260 an hour to £280 an hour, for someone who can afford 260 an hour paying 280 an hour makes little difference. Put 20 an hour on the price of training in a C150 then 130 an hour to 150 will make a difference to your trade.
Also it costs the average CPL FI(H) 50,000 just to get the VFR CPL and FI rating; also as you mentioned SAS several helicopter schools run AOC work, due to the tenuous nature of helicopter VFR rules then it is possible for VFR only qualified helicopter pilots to fly air taxi charters. As said the charter company the CPL FI(H) moves onto is in most cases the school they already work for. Most CPL FIs(H) will do a combination of instruction and charter work. So SAS for most CPL FI(H) they are paying 50,000 for a licence that has an earning cap of 25,000-30,000 a year; in comparison in the fixed wing world 50,000 can get you a CPL,MEIR, fATPL,MCC and FI rating where the earning potential by moving into the airlines is 40,000 to 80,000 a year.
For CPl FI(H) the only way to improve your earning is invest a further 35,000 to get an IR in order to move into North Sea Oil work.
So for then last 20 years in NZ, Australia, America and the UK PPL(A) instructing was always a breeding ground for the airlines.
SAS, yes you are correct there is a problem with retaining PPLs,

Quote
I would rather have fewer, richer students and members who fly more often.

Fixed wing flying does not need to be exclusive.
The main problem is club hire is expensive and inflexible; however do you ever make your fresh PPLs aware that by doing a tailwheel conversion they could join a syndicate opeating out of a grass strip where they could be flying a Cub or a jodel for as little as £40 pounds an hour. That is where affordable flying lies.

SAS, if we followed your proposals then the price of the commerical training, would rocket, you seem to forget the current system has allowed many of us an affordable route into an aviation career.

Also have you ever heard the term a fool and his money are soon flying more money than they can handle; consequently this is why Cirrus aircraft feature so heavily in the MOR reports for airspace infringements; certainly evidence that money does not lead to better competence.
Gash,
Does the hour building instructor still exist; what do you think I am and my instructional exeprience has gained me four airline interviews in the last two months. However you are correct the popularity of self sponsored type ratings is one of the main factors that has contributed to an instructor shortage. This is why I advocate a return to the old CAA self improver system where 700 hours was needed to hold a full CPL.
With the MPL to be introduced in the next few years the relationship between the airlines and GA will be further severed and the instructor shortage will only get worse.

[xrayalpha]

VFE wote:

>>there's been a drop in all PPL(A) licence issues of around 1000 in the UK over the last 4 years - amazing considering prices have been almost frozen. General aviation is certainly in decline - an interesting thread would be what to do about it?! I honestly do not know how some schools continue to operate with such tight profit margins.<<<

Perhaps some of the figures from Flight Training News might be interesting. There are now about 100 microlight flying school and the same number of light aircraft flying schools. I think there are 99 of one and 100 of the other.

Now, I appreciate that many microlight schools are one man bands in a Portakabin, but some GA schools are little more than that too.

Also of interest is the number of light aircraft movements at Scottish airports as referenced in a Highland and Islands Enterprise report on Connel airfield referenced in the Oban thread. Quite simply, GA movements at Glasgow and Edinburgh have halved in the past decade.

No wonder, BAA want the commercial passengers for WH Smith etc.

The problem is that another part of the report says that student pilots are unwilling to travel more than 30 minutes to their lessons. So what other airfields etc are within 30 minutes of Glasgow and Edinburgh?

There are a couple, Cumbernauld being one. And when I started teaching microlights there, there was one GA school. Then there were three! (and then one went bust!) But there is nowhere to hangar an aircraft! (and if you find a space, you won't be able to afford it!)

So where do you go post-licence?

I, of course, own a grass airfield near Glasgow. My hangar is know as the "rubber hangar" because it seems to stretch to get just one more inside! But I have now even had to derig my microlight to get a paying customer in.

This year we have had eight students gain licences. Seven of them have bought their own aircraft. This is microlights - with prices from £1500 to £25,000.

How many GA students in Scotland have bought their own aircraft after gaining their licence this year? If they did, where would they hangar it?

That's the problem, in a nutshell.

No facilities.

Very best wishes,

Colin

[znww5]

Very interesting post from Colin, xrayalpha. Certainly if being an FI is increasingly being seen as a non-starter for aspiring airline pilots the instructor shortage will continue to increase. Being an increasingly rare commodity should lead to better pay and conditions for FI's generally, but of course schools will have to pass on the extra cost to students.

I suspect that Colin is right in so far as the migration from group A to microlight training will continue and the trend certainly seems to be more advanced than I had thought, given his statistics. What would be interesting however, would be to see how many group A schools follow the market and migrate to microlight instruction.

The reason for this migration is clear - cost. A case in point would be the 2 schools at Sywell, where each operates a version of the Eurostar - the microlight school charges £98/hr dual, whereas the group A school charges £127/hr. OK, the group A version has a more powerful engine and a very nice paint job, but these are as near to being the same aircraft as you can get.

So the effect of this process will probably be an improvement in pay for Group A instructors, followed by a drop in demand and an acceleration towards modern microlight training becoming the natural starting point for leisure flyers.

Which will, perhaps, lead us on to a discussion of whether there is a microlight instructor shortage in a few years time!


David

[xrayalpha]

David,

There is a microlight instructor shortage now!!

(In my view, it all boils down to 800 hours times the hourly rate, minus expenses and VAT. So at 100 an hour, you have 80k to pay for aircraft, fuel maintenance, insurance, building, hangerage, publicity, phone, light, heat, office, personal at desk etc, etc, etc)

Hence, not a lot left in it for the instructor.

My thoughts (and actions) are £35 a flying hour for instructors in school aircraft, £70 an hour for those in their own aircraft.

As a result, I am the most expensive microlight school in the country, at £110 a hour for lessons.

(and on weighshift microlights, you are lucky to do 500 hours in a year!)

Very best,

Colin

[Say again s l o w l y]

I differ slightly in my view of this Colin. The Instructor should never be taken as part of the aircraft costs. They are a seperate entity. So if you charge £100/hr and make £80k a year, that is all down to the aircraft.

The FI should be a totally seperate charge, so that the FI is never left picking the up simply "what's left".

£35/hr is a very sensible figure and I wish there were more school owners like you around. Mind you I suppose that's what comes when a schools is owned by an experienced instructor rather than someone with no real experience of flight instruction other than as a student.

p.s when is the fly-in at Strathaven this year? I'll try and make it, but since the nasty Mrs CAA person took my medical away, I won't be flying unless I can get a lift!

[xrayalpha]

Hi SAS,

Well, I see the cost of the lesson as a whole package - unlike most of the aviation industry!

(I loved the beer advert spoof of Ryanair where the beer was 40p a pint, plus glass hire charge, alcohol duty, VAT, glass washing charge, beer mat fee, etc etc etc.)

All I mean is that when, as a flying school, you have to price flights you have to factor in all the costs - such as fuel, depreciation, staff, etc etc.

But give the customer one price. Not some low figure that gets inflated with VAT and landing fees etc.

I am fortunate in owning my own airfield, so I can choose not to charge landing fees. However, I still have to put an element in the flying lesson costs for grass cutting and cost of capital!

My point is that, as an instructor, there are a finite number of hours you can work in a year.

Whether you get paid a salary, a daily rate, or by the flying hour, there is a minimum you need to earn to pay your family's bills.

If that sum is 80k a year, you'll never make ends meet as an instructor.

If it is 10k a year, then you could be saving some useful cash every year if you earn 20k!

I, personally, think flying instructors should be able to earn the national avergae wage (about 22K).

So, in trying to ensure that the people who work for me can earn that sort of living, I start from 500 hours flying a year and work from that to come up with my hourly rate at which there is money left to pay for aircraft, fuel, repairs etc.

What I don't do is work out what is the maximum the market can bear and look at how little I can pay for all my costs, which is how many traditional GA flying schools take as the basis for their operations.

It works, as long as you don't mind the high staff turnover. But my margins as a flying school operator and airfield operator are so tight that I can't afford to have aircraft doing nothing because I don't have the staff (CFS comes to mind last summer!)

Indeed, my Ikarus has been out of service for four months due to pathetic customer service at Aerosport and it has cost me 15 quid a day in lost income from the captial invested in it!

Then there is the profit on each flying lesson that would have helped pay the airfield bills.

I appreciate microlighting is very different. Instructors often own their own aircraft - and then go off flying in them for fun at the end of a busy day! Schools often operate their own airfields, or lease hangers that they then sublet. Students often buy their own aircraft, and the school can get a commission from the manufacturer for sales.

None of that is very common in GA.

But what is vital to all flying is good customer expereinces.

Since there is a shortage of instructors, to be a good school you have to retain staff - because that is what students overwhelmingly want, continuity of instruction.

To keep staff, you have to pay them a living wage.

So, am I in business for me? Or am I in business for my staff - to keep them earning a living wage? Or am I in business for my customers - providing them what they want?

Fortunately, I believe - and it seems to work - that if you get the second two right, then the first will work.

But gosh, it is hard!

Now off to try and sort out paypal payments for our new venture: www.hovercraft scotland.com

If they won't let you fly anything else, then why not come and fly these!

ps Strathaven fly-in will be the Sunday of the English August Bank Holiday weekend - to tie in with the balloon festival. But we plan a few more too.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I agree with everything you say there Colin. Customer service is seriously lacking in the flight training world. A lot of people talk aout it, but in reality have stuff all idea about what it actually means. Let alone how to implement it!

I'm probably not allowed on hovercraft at the moment, but I'll be there as soon as possible. Sounds great.

Good luck with it and all the best.