How would you run a flying school/club?
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Have to say i would have thought you would have jumped in straight away with the time on the ground. Is it fair you pay for 20 minutes holding on the ground at the flying rate--I do not think so especially as the airframe and engine hours are taken from take off to landing.
As far as a club is concerned, with no profit motive, what they should do is tally up all costs for an airplane, meaning fuel, maintenance, hangarage, insurance, depreciation, whatever, and divide that by whatever convenient number can be easily and reliably measured from the instruments in the airplane. The pilot then has to pay whatever the instrument says he has used.
There are several variations. There's hobbs meters, which can be wired to the electric master switch, to the engine master switch (in case of FADEC), to an oil pressure sense switch, to a pitot pressure sense switch and probably a few other places as well. There's also places that use the tacho, and places that use the honour system requiring you to accurately report engine on, off-blocks, take-off, landing, on-blocks or engine off times.
But at the end of the fiscal year, the exact method of deriving your flying time is divided out. So it really doesn't matter all that much. A system where you only pay for actual time in the air will have higher hourly rates than a system based a hobbs meter, which runs all the time the engine is on, all other factors being equal.
The only real difference is whether the system favours long flights over short flights or not, and whether the system encourages flying at a "proper" cruise speed, properly leaned, or favours flying at the highest power setting that's allowed continuously.
It seems to me that using the tacho as basis for charging flight time is the best compromise, although this doesn't yet encourage proper leaning. Because of that, long distance, high-altitude (typically IFR) flights are comparatively expensive for the costs that these flights incur.
Who needs all these fancy aircraft and buildings - all some of us ever wanted was to learn how to fly.
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Radical, this is getting into the legal side of things. I have no experience in the UK, but in Holland what you would do is grab a few like-minded people, discuss between yourselves the rules and regulations your club is going to live by (examples are available from a lot of places), then go to a public notary and formally set up the club. That same notary can also help you with the rules and regulations. You need to appoint the first chairman and first treasurer at that point too, and establish rules on serving periods, elections and such for the board of directors.
As part of the rules and regulations, you also need to establish how the club may come to an end, and what happens to the assets of the club should there be any left over in that case. Those assets are NOT owned by the members, nor by the board of directors or the original founders, so you have to decide up front what happens with them.
You then need to register your club at what is called in Dutch the "Kamer van Koophandel". I have no clue what that is in the UK, but it is a public record keeping place of everything that is a legal entity without being a natural person. (Legally, you can run a club without registering it, in Holland, but you are then severely limited in what you can do with regards to buying significant assets, taking out loans and such.)
Then open up a bank account, make sure you get some money into the club (either from contributions or donations from members, or by taking out a secured or unsecured loan) and start buying assets. Planes, ground, buildings, computers, printers, reception desks, vacuum cleaners, insurance, you name it.
Advertise the club, make sure you get some more members in, and start enjoying yourselves.
If the club owns an airplane, or organizes flight training, I might think a phonecall to the CAA is also in order, to be properly registered as owner and/or FTO. There may be some rules and regulations that go with that too, but the CAA is in a better position to advise you on that than I am.
And at some point, accept that the club might not be heading into the direction that your originally had in mind, and either work through the democratic process to change it, or quietly step out. It seems to me that almost every club (aviation and non-aviation) has a bunch of "old hands" around which stifle any progress that's being made. Don't be one of them!
So if you're serious, I'd say your first point of call should be a public notary. He can tell you exactly what's involved in your jurisdiction.
(Edited to say that it looks like RadicalRabbits question, to which this is a response, has now disappeared?)
As part of the rules and regulations, you also need to establish how the club may come to an end, and what happens to the assets of the club should there be any left over in that case. Those assets are NOT owned by the members, nor by the board of directors or the original founders, so you have to decide up front what happens with them.
You then need to register your club at what is called in Dutch the "Kamer van Koophandel". I have no clue what that is in the UK, but it is a public record keeping place of everything that is a legal entity without being a natural person. (Legally, you can run a club without registering it, in Holland, but you are then severely limited in what you can do with regards to buying significant assets, taking out loans and such.)
Then open up a bank account, make sure you get some money into the club (either from contributions or donations from members, or by taking out a secured or unsecured loan) and start buying assets. Planes, ground, buildings, computers, printers, reception desks, vacuum cleaners, insurance, you name it.
Advertise the club, make sure you get some more members in, and start enjoying yourselves.
If the club owns an airplane, or organizes flight training, I might think a phonecall to the CAA is also in order, to be properly registered as owner and/or FTO. There may be some rules and regulations that go with that too, but the CAA is in a better position to advise you on that than I am.
And at some point, accept that the club might not be heading into the direction that your originally had in mind, and either work through the democratic process to change it, or quietly step out. It seems to me that almost every club (aviation and non-aviation) has a bunch of "old hands" around which stifle any progress that's being made. Don't be one of them!
So if you're serious, I'd say your first point of call should be a public notary. He can tell you exactly what's involved in your jurisdiction.
(Edited to say that it looks like RadicalRabbits question, to which this is a response, has now disappeared?)
Last edited by BackPacker; 6th Dec 2007 at 07:00.
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Chuck,
I'd come to your school. Who needs all these fancy aircraft and buildings - all some of us ever wanted was to learn how to fly.
Unfortunately the system will not allow such a simple logical concept as that.
I quit aviation because I could no longer take all the B.S. that went with it.
I am far better off now not having to deal with some moron telling me how to do something the moron never did themselves.
Fu.k it I managed to fly 55 years without having to fill out an accident form and I'm satisfied with that.
By the way in our lets pretend school I want a Huey Cobra fully armed to protect our territory from morons.
I'd come to your school. Who needs all these fancy aircraft and buildings - all some of us ever wanted was to learn how to fly.
Unfortunately the system will not allow such a simple logical concept as that.
I quit aviation because I could no longer take all the B.S. that went with it.
I am far better off now not having to deal with some moron telling me how to do something the moron never did themselves.
Fu.k it I managed to fly 55 years without having to fill out an accident form and I'm satisfied with that.
By the way in our lets pretend school I want a Huey Cobra fully armed to protect our territory from morons.
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BP
Planning Permission in the UK, I would like to tell you something about it but no one knows how it works not even the planners.
A bunch of residents in this country have just been told that they all have to take their drives up and replace it with grass because they never got PP to effect the change. Its mental
Chuck I bet that toolbox is worth more than the aircraft
Planning Permission in the UK, I would like to tell you something about it but no one knows how it works not even the planners.
A bunch of residents in this country have just been told that they all have to take their drives up and replace it with grass because they never got PP to effect the change. Its mental
Chuck I bet that toolbox is worth more than the aircraft
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Well, I guess that if you want to build and use a runway you need planning permission. But that's regardless of whether it's a club, a corporation or an individual doing that and thus not really relevant to the discussion about how to set up a club, is it?
Another can of worms, or so I've been told, in the UK is H&S.
Another can of worms, or so I've been told, in the UK is H&S.
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I know a little bit about this, and it appears that setting up an airfield is not impossible. The hardest bit is that everybody thinks it is impossible, so almost nobody does it, and those that do it just go for very limited (private) usage. The budget would be mid 5 figures for the planning permission.
However a hard runway appears much harder to achieve. I know of people who did it, on a previously unused site, after a few years' work, but none of them are in the UK.
Anyway, currently, you need a licensed airfield to do PPL training, and any business needs to offer that to generate revenue through that and to be able to do pleasure flights (trial lessons).
H&S is less of a problem. One can just pay the minimal lip service to it, just well enough for the insurance to be valid. But such a realistic attitude needs direction from management. What most businesses do is they appoint a H&S manager and he immediately does what humans do: builds an empire. He then throws his weight about. This is why we get the stupid rules, like mandatory yellow jackets. There is NO demonstrable safety case for yellow jackets. It is just some moron decided to write them into his safety manual.
These people normally hold relatively harmless jobs in society e.g. ISO9000 quality managers; insisting that the company purchases its toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc.
However, occassionally, these little men escape the ISO9000 environment and end up working in H&S, and then there is BIG TROUBLE.
llanfairpg - I am very sorry to hear this, but there is a plastic material which can be used to covertly reinforce grass. It's too expensive to build a hard runway with it but it would be fine for "grass" drives.
However a hard runway appears much harder to achieve. I know of people who did it, on a previously unused site, after a few years' work, but none of them are in the UK.
Anyway, currently, you need a licensed airfield to do PPL training, and any business needs to offer that to generate revenue through that and to be able to do pleasure flights (trial lessons).
H&S is less of a problem. One can just pay the minimal lip service to it, just well enough for the insurance to be valid. But such a realistic attitude needs direction from management. What most businesses do is they appoint a H&S manager and he immediately does what humans do: builds an empire. He then throws his weight about. This is why we get the stupid rules, like mandatory yellow jackets. There is NO demonstrable safety case for yellow jackets. It is just some moron decided to write them into his safety manual.
These people normally hold relatively harmless jobs in society e.g. ISO9000 quality managers; insisting that the company purchases its toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc.
However, occassionally, these little men escape the ISO9000 environment and end up working in H&S, and then there is BIG TROUBLE.
llanfairpg - I am very sorry to hear this, but there is a plastic material which can be used to covertly reinforce grass. It's too expensive to build a hard runway with it but it would be fine for "grass" drives.
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IO540
Very apt!
toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc
Very apt!
toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc
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The club is not just about the aeroplanes or the prices but the members. If they are just people who expect to turn up and fly and then go home it is very hard to create any proper club atmosphere.
Members need to be encouraged to turn up even when not flying, and to stay around after they have finished.
My club does it's best with 152s and PA28s to learn on and for solo hire and 172/PA28 for touring and a Cub, Decathlon, Pitts S2A, and Tiger Moth for those after interesting flying.
Members need to be encouraged to turn up even when not flying, and to stay around after they have finished.
My club does it's best with 152s and PA28s to learn on and for solo hire and 172/PA28 for touring and a Cub, Decathlon, Pitts S2A, and Tiger Moth for those after interesting flying.
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Tiger
Dont you think it also has a lot to do with the way the club is managed,have you heard that old management saying:
Fish rot from the head downwards
If you have a management team that are service and customer orientated rather than just anorak enthuisats you get a different type of organisation.
The most important type of enthusiasm to have in any service industry is enthusiam for the customer.
Give you an example of differences in attiude,
School/club A a fantastic shiny powerful single a/c arrives at an aerodrome everyone stops, remarks about it and wants to go over and look.
School/Club B A fantastic shiny new pilot arrives at an aerodrome and someone detailed from the management team remarks about it and goes over and welcomes the pilot.
I think it is pretty impressive when someone flys an aircraft into another aerodrome as a visitor. I think it is pretty impressive when someone puts their head round the door of a flying club and may want to learn to fly. Sadly i seem to be alone, judging by the lack of welcoming I have seen and experienced.
Dont you think it also has a lot to do with the way the club is managed,have you heard that old management saying:
Fish rot from the head downwards
If you have a management team that are service and customer orientated rather than just anorak enthuisats you get a different type of organisation.
The most important type of enthusiasm to have in any service industry is enthusiam for the customer.
Give you an example of differences in attiude,
School/club A a fantastic shiny powerful single a/c arrives at an aerodrome everyone stops, remarks about it and wants to go over and look.
School/Club B A fantastic shiny new pilot arrives at an aerodrome and someone detailed from the management team remarks about it and goes over and welcomes the pilot.
I think it is pretty impressive when someone flys an aircraft into another aerodrome as a visitor. I think it is pretty impressive when someone puts their head round the door of a flying club and may want to learn to fly. Sadly i seem to be alone, judging by the lack of welcoming I have seen and experienced.
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No, you are not alone by any means.
Now, don't get me wrong, the flying school I trained with for the PPL was excellent.
The aircraft were relatively new, and well maintained.
Standards of instruction were second to none.
However, what really used to p*ss me off was that on entering the place, most of the time you were lucky to even be acknowledged.
I never used to really feel welcome there, even though for most lessons I was about to part with best part of a couple of hundred quid.
There was no excuse with the admin staff being voluntary either - they were all paid.
I returned to the same place two years after getting my PPL to do the IMC rating, for no other reason really than the fact that I was obviously very familiar with the aerodrome and the local area, and I knew the standard of instruction would be good.
However, I have since joined a syndicate and have on occasions visited my old training unit, but with the same results. You stick your head round the door to say hello, and basically they don't want to know.
Perhaps its just a revenue thing, and they know they are unlikely to make any money out of me now, but then again I did return for the IMC course, and then there's always the night rating......
Strange though.
Now, don't get me wrong, the flying school I trained with for the PPL was excellent.
The aircraft were relatively new, and well maintained.
Standards of instruction were second to none.
However, what really used to p*ss me off was that on entering the place, most of the time you were lucky to even be acknowledged.
I never used to really feel welcome there, even though for most lessons I was about to part with best part of a couple of hundred quid.
There was no excuse with the admin staff being voluntary either - they were all paid.
I returned to the same place two years after getting my PPL to do the IMC rating, for no other reason really than the fact that I was obviously very familiar with the aerodrome and the local area, and I knew the standard of instruction would be good.
However, I have since joined a syndicate and have on occasions visited my old training unit, but with the same results. You stick your head round the door to say hello, and basically they don't want to know.
Perhaps its just a revenue thing, and they know they are unlikely to make any money out of me now, but then again I did return for the IMC course, and then there's always the night rating......
Strange though.
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Oscar
It is common with British service industries. when Wal Mart took over ASDA the first thing they did was put 'Greeters' on the door.
It is not only customer friendly staff you need, and you do have to employ training even in basic skills such as getting someone to say, HELLO! you also need a new customer service enviroment. How many clubs/school hide their staff behind screens/counters (just in case they catch anything off the nasty customers) I would imagine signing on would be a more friendly experience!
The other gripe is the general appearance, cleanliness and untidyness of some of these places. In most businesses where you are going to part with around £5000 plus they have much more than just a untidy shed to encourage you to part with your money.
It is common with British service industries. when Wal Mart took over ASDA the first thing they did was put 'Greeters' on the door.
It is not only customer friendly staff you need, and you do have to employ training even in basic skills such as getting someone to say, HELLO! you also need a new customer service enviroment. How many clubs/school hide their staff behind screens/counters (just in case they catch anything off the nasty customers) I would imagine signing on would be a more friendly experience!
The other gripe is the general appearance, cleanliness and untidyness of some of these places. In most businesses where you are going to part with around £5000 plus they have much more than just a untidy shed to encourage you to part with your money.
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Agree absolutely.
When you walk into our local B & Q there is inevitably someone standing just inside the door with a stack of orange buckets to hand to customers as they enter.
But boy oh boy do they look (and obviously feel) awkward.
It's just something in the British psyche IMHO.
When you walk into our local B & Q there is inevitably someone standing just inside the door with a stack of orange buckets to hand to customers as they enter.
But boy oh boy do they look (and obviously feel) awkward.
It's just something in the British psyche IMHO.
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our own runway
Wonder if we could blag peak district national park into using some of the vast amount of wasted space we have to make a runway to take some of the traffic off the roads and avoid the need to build yet another by-pass?
Maybe we could helicopter people into Manchester but then the CAA would have a million reasons why not. So good to see we have such a solid transport ministry in this country who all sing from the same sheet eh aren't we lucky....
Yes I know Barton is only a stones throw away but it takes an hour to crawl to through the traffic to even get on the motorway from here. By the time we get to Barton its gone dark !!!
Maybe we could helicopter people into Manchester but then the CAA would have a million reasons why not. So good to see we have such a solid transport ministry in this country who all sing from the same sheet eh aren't we lucky....
Yes I know Barton is only a stones throw away but it takes an hour to crawl to through the traffic to even get on the motorway from here. By the time we get to Barton its gone dark !!!
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Rad
You reminded me how nice it is to have high ground around an airfield!!!
So its got to be grass(with good drainage) with tailwheel aircraft with a few hills, friendly welcoming staff and members.
Must have an NDB for confusion and good stories in the bar.
what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?
Catering must serve proper Sunday Lunch, good beer and cider in the bar.
Anything else
You reminded me how nice it is to have high ground around an airfield!!!
So its got to be grass(with good drainage) with tailwheel aircraft with a few hills, friendly welcoming staff and members.
Must have an NDB for confusion and good stories in the bar.
what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?
Catering must serve proper Sunday Lunch, good beer and cider in the bar.
Anything else
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what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?
Obviously needs a flight briefing corner with internet access and a printer, free for all to use (small box for volunteer donations recommended). Wireless internet if possible for those who bring their own laptop - just put the WEP key on the noticeboard.
A traditional jukebox? Pinball machine? Seating: old 1st class airliner stuff.
Catering must serve proper Sunday Lunch, good beer and cider in the bar.
Anything else
Up to date, but easy to maintain internet site. With webcam?