Circuit Tips?
Fly Conventional Gear
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Each to his own I suppose.
But if you're training and one day you say to your instructor: "Actually I don't agree with what you've told me...I read blah blah blah on PPRuNe so I'm going to do it that way instead."
What sort of reaction would you get?
If you are training and taught BUMFFPICHH then I'd stick to that.
But if you're training and one day you say to your instructor: "Actually I don't agree with what you've told me...I read blah blah blah on PPRuNe so I'm going to do it that way instead."
What sort of reaction would you get?
If you are training and taught BUMFFPICHH then I'd stick to that.
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It loses me on here sometimes, it really does, Contact tower, when did I learn Brakes are OFF, Undercarriage is FIXED, Mixture is RICH, Pitch is Fixed, Flaps, Fuel is on sufficient, FUEL PUMP IS ON, Altimeter is SET, DI is aligned, engine t's and p's are within limits, carb heat on, hatches and harness landing light is on.... ready for my first land away and with no need to reference a written checklist and also carrying out the actions, it was of course whilst flying circuits. 
It is pretty obvious I wouldn't have managed that lot when under the stress of my first land away at a new airfield without going over it in the circuit a few times.
Even worse having to do that lot at a strange airfield and navigate and do the radio and look out for other traffic--thats exactly why I have simple pre-land checks.
All your other checks are completed as Airfield Approach Checks normally FREDA. The time to set an altimeter is before you join a circuit not in it, same with the DI.
It is pretty obvious I wouldn't have managed that lot when under the stress of my first land away at a new airfield without going over it in the circuit a few times.Even worse having to do that lot at a strange airfield and navigate and do the radio and look out for other traffic--thats exactly why I have simple pre-land checks.
All your other checks are completed as Airfield Approach Checks normally FREDA. The time to set an altimeter is before you join a circuit not in it, same with the DI.
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Just to add a little fuel to the fire...
The mnemonic that I was taught is 'BUMCOFFHHAC' for Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixture, Carb heat (hot), Oil temps/pressures, Fuel, Flaps, Hatches, Harnesses, Altitude, Carb head (cold). Usually done immediately after the downwind call (thought realistically, often during because of traffic).
When I first started this, I would break the checks up into the three pronounceable syllables, BUM, COFF and HHAC, pausing for a good lookout in between each. Its a good 'starter for 10' with the instructor around, but I found that as I did it more and more I would be doing the checks and looking out simultaneously.
llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied
The mnemonic that I was taught is 'BUMCOFFHHAC' for Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixture, Carb heat (hot), Oil temps/pressures, Fuel, Flaps, Hatches, Harnesses, Altitude, Carb head (cold). Usually done immediately after the downwind call (thought realistically, often during because of traffic).
When I first started this, I would break the checks up into the three pronounceable syllables, BUM, COFF and HHAC, pausing for a good lookout in between each. Its a good 'starter for 10' with the instructor around, but I found that as I did it more and more I would be doing the checks and looking out simultaneously.
llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied
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Oh, one other thing. Could we please stop calling them downwind checks, and call them pre-landing checks instead? What if you get a direct base join, or heaven forbid, a straight-in approach?
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DP
llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied
I appreciate what you saying, obviously you must follow what your instructor says or more correctly the school or club policy.
This is a forum for debate and what I am suggesting is that you consider that there may be other alternatives to many of the things that you are doing now as a students and may like to consider for instance if you ever fly into Oshkosh or Silverstone when the British Grand Prix is on!. Anyone can blindly follow the instructions of another but progress in any aspect in life starts by questioning why we do certain things and could there be better way of doing something. If pilots were constrained to the thoughts of their original instructors we would all still be flying around in canvas bi planes with limited panels. (Mind you I quite like the sound of that)I use the definition of airmanship when trying to judge on what action to take.
Airmanship is to take the most effective and safest course of action in a given set of circumstances.
To my thinking when flying in an ATZ where there is more chance of meeting other student pilots who are also involved in encylopeadic checks the most effective and safest course of action is to dedicate as much time as possible on lookout, removing unnesecarry checks achieves this(I think). You may be able to recite the checks in groups or whatever but that will still distract your attention away from the radio. You may be able to check the gauges on the otherside of the cockpit and check the passengers harness and lookout and listen to the radio and build up a picture of the circuit traffiic and call downwind all at the same time but you see i am not that good, I cannot plus I am lazy I just want to sit back relax and concentrate on the traffic situation, listen to the radio, look out the window and call downwind.
When I fly in an ATZ I am frightened and its a good feeling I hope I will always retain. The experinece you bow to of mine(and please do not as your opinion is just as important as mine) includes having an Islander fly underneath me at Wellesbourne downwind with a student and carry on downwind and land and he never saw me once. Having a pilot fly underneath me when I with a student and was at 300 feet on finals at Bannf. Having an idiot in a twin join on the wrong base leg at Wellesbourne and nearly wipe us out.Having several near misses with joining aircarft in various circuits etc. I am also very aware of why some Cherokee 180s in this country have windows fitted in the roof.
But my major experince is sitting beside students trying to get to grips with getting a radio call in, notice I said trying to get a radio call in and then doing a litany of checks most of which are not neccesary. As a CFI when I wrote the SOPs my main concern was for the safety of students and not to encourage them to check whether the door was locked and they were strapped in downwind. You may well be able to cope with doing all those checks and perhaps reciting a monologue too but you must remember that as a CFI I must write policy that can be safely carried out by everyone and I have had students from Richard Branson to students who could not even write their names. In PPL training you come across a very very wide range of abillity and a resposnsible CFI will always take that into consideration when standardisng or writing policy.
llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied
I appreciate what you saying, obviously you must follow what your instructor says or more correctly the school or club policy.
This is a forum for debate and what I am suggesting is that you consider that there may be other alternatives to many of the things that you are doing now as a students and may like to consider for instance if you ever fly into Oshkosh or Silverstone when the British Grand Prix is on!. Anyone can blindly follow the instructions of another but progress in any aspect in life starts by questioning why we do certain things and could there be better way of doing something. If pilots were constrained to the thoughts of their original instructors we would all still be flying around in canvas bi planes with limited panels. (Mind you I quite like the sound of that)I use the definition of airmanship when trying to judge on what action to take.
Airmanship is to take the most effective and safest course of action in a given set of circumstances.
To my thinking when flying in an ATZ where there is more chance of meeting other student pilots who are also involved in encylopeadic checks the most effective and safest course of action is to dedicate as much time as possible on lookout, removing unnesecarry checks achieves this(I think). You may be able to recite the checks in groups or whatever but that will still distract your attention away from the radio. You may be able to check the gauges on the otherside of the cockpit and check the passengers harness and lookout and listen to the radio and build up a picture of the circuit traffiic and call downwind all at the same time but you see i am not that good, I cannot plus I am lazy I just want to sit back relax and concentrate on the traffic situation, listen to the radio, look out the window and call downwind.
When I fly in an ATZ I am frightened and its a good feeling I hope I will always retain. The experinece you bow to of mine(and please do not as your opinion is just as important as mine) includes having an Islander fly underneath me at Wellesbourne downwind with a student and carry on downwind and land and he never saw me once. Having a pilot fly underneath me when I with a student and was at 300 feet on finals at Bannf. Having an idiot in a twin join on the wrong base leg at Wellesbourne and nearly wipe us out.Having several near misses with joining aircarft in various circuits etc. I am also very aware of why some Cherokee 180s in this country have windows fitted in the roof.
But my major experince is sitting beside students trying to get to grips with getting a radio call in, notice I said trying to get a radio call in and then doing a litany of checks most of which are not neccesary. As a CFI when I wrote the SOPs my main concern was for the safety of students and not to encourage them to check whether the door was locked and they were strapped in downwind. You may well be able to cope with doing all those checks and perhaps reciting a monologue too but you must remember that as a CFI I must write policy that can be safely carried out by everyone and I have had students from Richard Branson to students who could not even write their names. In PPL training you come across a very very wide range of abillity and a resposnsible CFI will always take that into consideration when standardisng or writing policy.
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That sounds good sense to me llanfairpg. Times might have changed but when I learned in 1976 check lists were very frowned upon and only checks relevant to the particular machine were included in any pre -landing scan.
It seems today there is desire to include in basic training a universal ritual intended to be applicable to all machines. I really think this is wrong.
How is this supposed to translate to post qualification flying? Always go through some sort of pantomime or what? My flying time is overwhelmingly in Pitts, Stampes and Tigers. There are no relevant checks so am I expected to imagine I am flying something else and perhaps pretend to lower the undercarriage, change to a fuel tank I don't have etc??.
It is very clear from this forum that everyone's attitudes are formed by their own type of flying and particular experience. In my case my experience is very deep but also very very narrow so it is interesting to hear what others think when the 'common ground' of circuits and landing is concerned.
It seems today there is desire to include in basic training a universal ritual intended to be applicable to all machines. I really think this is wrong.
How is this supposed to translate to post qualification flying? Always go through some sort of pantomime or what? My flying time is overwhelmingly in Pitts, Stampes and Tigers. There are no relevant checks so am I expected to imagine I am flying something else and perhaps pretend to lower the undercarriage, change to a fuel tank I don't have etc??.
It is very clear from this forum that everyone's attitudes are formed by their own type of flying and particular experience. In my case my experience is very deep but also very very narrow so it is interesting to hear what others think when the 'common ground' of circuits and landing is concerned.
Pompey till I die
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Be careful
However, do any of you have any hints or tips for making the workload more manageable?
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Some of the comments made here are totaly one sided.
Some of you are screaming and shouting at "G-EMMA" etc about doing the check BUMPFFICHHL, well whats wrong with considering undercarriage from the start? Wouldn't you prefer to have it installed as a natural reaction to simply consider the undercarriage? It probably takes no more than half a second for the thought to pass through memory whilst maintaining a lookout. As for the hatches and harnesses, how do you know that your pax- possibly small children- havent removed theirs etc.
Someone was moaning about the fuel aspect for christ sake, certain aircraft may require a touch and go on the fullest tank. Theirs that sorted.
And talking about: "why dont you check the cabin crew are sitting while ur at it" etc, well, i think we should keep this general aviation
Some of you are screaming and shouting at "G-EMMA" etc about doing the check BUMPFFICHHL, well whats wrong with considering undercarriage from the start? Wouldn't you prefer to have it installed as a natural reaction to simply consider the undercarriage? It probably takes no more than half a second for the thought to pass through memory whilst maintaining a lookout. As for the hatches and harnesses, how do you know that your pax- possibly small children- havent removed theirs etc.
Someone was moaning about the fuel aspect for christ sake, certain aircraft may require a touch and go on the fullest tank. Theirs that sorted.
And talking about: "why dont you check the cabin crew are sitting while ur at it" etc, well, i think we should keep this general aviation
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How about "FUN"?
Where's the chance to just have a jolly good time in all this pedantry?
Has the weather been that bad for that long???
Some of you guys spend way too much time "aviating" and not enough time flying. Give the wingroot mounting bolts a break and lighten up a little.
Pitts2112
Where's the chance to just have a jolly good time in all this pedantry?
Has the weather been that bad for that long???
Some of you guys spend way too much time "aviating" and not enough time flying. Give the wingroot mounting bolts a break and lighten up a little.
Pitts2112
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I try to bear in mind the bad things that may potentially happen at any phase of flight, and act to mitigate them - this applies in the circuit as much as anywhere else. The exact actions depend on the type of aircraft being flown. In the circuit, I try to avoid the following;
1) Flying into someone else.
2) Gliding into the ground some distance from the runway.
3) Hitting the downwind hedge.
4) Hitting the runway in an expensive fashion.
5) Hitting the upwind hedge.
(1) involves looking out of the window. In the Pitts, this also involves rolling 20 degrees left and right to see round the comedy oversized interplane struts every few seconds. I don't feel the urge to do this in the Yak, because people would accuse me of flying like a gumby.
(2) involves engine and fuel management. I don't feel the urge to check the mixture control in the Yak, because there isn't one - nor the carb heat control in the Pitts, for the same reason. They both require fuel, although the former uses it hilariously quickly.
(3) involves flying a controlled, stable approach, ideally from a position where should my efforts at mitigating (2) are sub-standard, I can still arrive on the runway. Quietly.
(4) involves having the wheels meet the right spot on runway in as gentle a fashion as possible, and that the propellor doesn't meet the runway in any fashion at all. In the Yak, this involves looking at three green lights, and three indicator sticks, and then telling no-one in particular over the radio that I can see the three green lights. In the Pitts, it involves making sure I have my lucky underpants on. I don't tell anyone I'm looking at three green lights on final in the Pitts, because I can't see any. Partly because there aren't any fitted, but mostly because I've got my eyes shut.
(5) involves a bit of (4), but also being prepared to miss the runway completely and hoof round to have another go at it. In both cases, attempting to do so with a coarse prop is going to be tricky, and in the Yak attempting to do so with the cowl gills shut can cook the engine remarkably quickly. There are handy levers on both types to manage this. I don't pretend to check the cowl flaps on the Pitts, because there aren't any - and if there were, it would be a Model 12, and I wouldn't be sat here typing this - I'd still be out there, in the dark, in the seventh consecutive hour of a torque roll in the overhead. Laughing.
What I'm trying to say, in a round-about way, is that learning slightly dodgy-sounding and long-winded acronyms for checks is all well and good, but what you're really trying to achieve is avoiding (1)-(5) above. In different aircraft, there are different ways of going about it - so chanting checklist items about features your aircraft doesn't have isn't going to help much, but if it makes you happy, what the hell.
1) Flying into someone else.
2) Gliding into the ground some distance from the runway.
3) Hitting the downwind hedge.
4) Hitting the runway in an expensive fashion.
5) Hitting the upwind hedge.
(1) involves looking out of the window. In the Pitts, this also involves rolling 20 degrees left and right to see round the comedy oversized interplane struts every few seconds. I don't feel the urge to do this in the Yak, because people would accuse me of flying like a gumby.
(2) involves engine and fuel management. I don't feel the urge to check the mixture control in the Yak, because there isn't one - nor the carb heat control in the Pitts, for the same reason. They both require fuel, although the former uses it hilariously quickly.
(3) involves flying a controlled, stable approach, ideally from a position where should my efforts at mitigating (2) are sub-standard, I can still arrive on the runway. Quietly.
(4) involves having the wheels meet the right spot on runway in as gentle a fashion as possible, and that the propellor doesn't meet the runway in any fashion at all. In the Yak, this involves looking at three green lights, and three indicator sticks, and then telling no-one in particular over the radio that I can see the three green lights. In the Pitts, it involves making sure I have my lucky underpants on. I don't tell anyone I'm looking at three green lights on final in the Pitts, because I can't see any. Partly because there aren't any fitted, but mostly because I've got my eyes shut.
(5) involves a bit of (4), but also being prepared to miss the runway completely and hoof round to have another go at it. In both cases, attempting to do so with a coarse prop is going to be tricky, and in the Yak attempting to do so with the cowl gills shut can cook the engine remarkably quickly. There are handy levers on both types to manage this. I don't pretend to check the cowl flaps on the Pitts, because there aren't any - and if there were, it would be a Model 12, and I wouldn't be sat here typing this - I'd still be out there, in the dark, in the seventh consecutive hour of a torque roll in the overhead. Laughing.
What I'm trying to say, in a round-about way, is that learning slightly dodgy-sounding and long-winded acronyms for checks is all well and good, but what you're really trying to achieve is avoiding (1)-(5) above. In different aircraft, there are different ways of going about it - so chanting checklist items about features your aircraft doesn't have isn't going to help much, but if it makes you happy, what the hell.
Last edited by eharding; 4th Dec 2007 at 19:11.
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Thanks so much for all your contributions, particularly the reassurance that it does get easier. I think part of the reason for my anxiety is down to most of the exercises to date being "set pieces" (for want of a better phrase) and fairly straight forward to drill and get into my head. Now I'm having to pull several together in the circuit.
The dinner table technique sounds good (i haven't got flight sim software) and can't be more embarrassing than getting caught practicing RT while driving!
I apologise if anyone got the impression that my instructor had thrown me in the deep end - I don't believe he did, I certainly got let off RT for the day! Whilst I found the session intense and frustrating, I wasn't drowning - just left with a lot to chew over.
Oh and G-EMMA - good luck with the nav!
Ta,
Red.
The dinner table technique sounds good (i haven't got flight sim software) and can't be more embarrassing than getting caught practicing RT while driving!
I apologise if anyone got the impression that my instructor had thrown me in the deep end - I don't believe he did, I certainly got let off RT for the day! Whilst I found the session intense and frustrating, I wasn't drowning - just left with a lot to chew over.
Oh and G-EMMA - good luck with the nav!
Ta,
Red.
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How is a PPL student supposed to concentrate on flying in the circuit when they are forced to do a check list that would confuse a two man crew on the Airbus A380?
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Ah, Chuck--common sense is alive and well after all!
RED--No need to walk around a dining room table--get a small model aircraft and take it around a square on that table.
Also brief a circuit and draw it on an A4 sheet
For RT practice, talk into a recorder, playback and learn, get an airband radio.
you can learn a lot about landing by watching other students land
The three Fs wat a load of FS!
Maintain thy airspeed correctly or the ground will come up and smite thee dead.
LOOKOUT --you never see the one that hits you.
If there is any doubt there is no doubt, GO AROUND.
Theres 3 that actually make sense!
RED--No need to walk around a dining room table--get a small model aircraft and take it around a square on that table.
Also brief a circuit and draw it on an A4 sheet
For RT practice, talk into a recorder, playback and learn, get an airband radio.
you can learn a lot about landing by watching other students land
The three Fs wat a load of FS!
Maintain thy airspeed correctly or the ground will come up and smite thee dead.
LOOKOUT --you never see the one that hits you.
If there is any doubt there is no doubt, GO AROUND.
Theres 3 that actually make sense!
Last edited by llanfairpg; 5th Dec 2007 at 09:53.
A little less conversation,
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Originally Posted by Chuck Ellsworth
How is a PPL student supposed to concentrate on flying in the circuit when they are forced to do a check list that would confuse a two man crew on the Airbus A380?
(6) Taxiing at full power into large concrete walls.
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Getting any flying licence or rating is akin to jumping through hoops. Once you have shown the examiner what he wants to see you can develop your own style. I used to teach BUMFITCH when I instructed but now when I fly for fun I never use it because I know how I need everything set and thats that, however I do think the structure of checks can be useful during the early stage. Anyway, there is hardly anything that's critical to landing in a simple single: Fuel pump is a good back up, flaps are optional unless on a short runway, prop and gear is fixed, mixture, well who ever touches it unless you go high or fly a bigger single... but lets not go there!
As a point of interest the landing checks I use at work are...
Cabin signal.... ....ding ding
Gear...................down
Flaps..................45
landing clearance.....received.
Thats it. Keep it simple!
As a point of interest the landing checks I use at work are...
Cabin signal.... ....ding ding
Gear...................down
Flaps..................45
landing clearance.....received.
Thats it. Keep it simple!
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Redbird 72
For what it's worth. Use whatever pnemonic pre-landing check you have been taught. + Look out. + Listen out.
Then, on finals, use the "Embarassment Check" PUF.
Propellor
Undercarriage
Flap
That should keep you out of trouble in ANY GA aeroplane.
Neppie
Then, on finals, use the "Embarassment Check" PUF.
Propellor
Undercarriage
Flap
That should keep you out of trouble in ANY GA aeroplane.
Neppie