Silly question...Why no parachutes?
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As I said, it's a trade-off that everybody makes for himself. A thousand UKP buys me not one but two FastFind Plus EPIRBs (or one EPIRB plus an immersion suit and a lifejacket), or about 10 flying hours in that Robin. That's 10 hours towards me upgrading to something sexier and more exciting. Although I might have to get a parachute then anyway.
Oh well, they told me from the outset, an aircraft is a hole in the sky that you throw money in.
Oh well, they told me from the outset, an aircraft is a hole in the sky that you throw money in.
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- Gotta have an aircraft with a jettisonable canopy for a parachute to make sense
- Gotta have had (freefall) parachute training and egress training
- Parachutes are expensive to acquire, and these sort of chutes need to be repacked by a professional every now and then (don't know the exact interval and why)
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.)
- There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
- Gotta have had (freefall) parachute training and egress training
- Parachutes are expensive to acquire, and these sort of chutes need to be repacked by a professional every now and then (don't know the exact interval and why)
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.)
- There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
--Parachutes are expensive? Your life is cheap, then? I've been saved by parachutes on two occasions, and if you count skydiving, then many others, too (technically every skydive, if you think about it). The cost of inspection and repack, training, and the parachute itself, is the cheapest cost you'll ever have, if you have to use it. Then again, if you need one, failure to wear one will be the most costly thing you'll ever experience. You'll spend the rest of your life regretting it. Probably less than a minute.
--Parachutes are not bulky. Get a good aerobatic parachute and it doubles as a cushion, and is very comfortable. A good pilot rig is lightweight, comfortable, and a very, very wise investment if you intend to take up aerobatics. Parachutes don't take lives; they save them. The life you save of couse, will be your own.
--A parachute does NOT reduce your feel for the airplane in any way, shape, or form. Not in the least. Not for flying aerobatics, not for any kind of flying. If it does, you aren't wearing it properly, or have selected the wrong choice in parachute rigs.
So far as training, you should have training if you're going to wear a parachute, just as you should receive training with a weaponif you're going to carry a firearm. However, the big thing when wearing a parachute is to get clear and pull the silver handle, period. Freefall training isn't particularly relevant, as you're not getting out to freefall. It won't hurt, mind you, and skydiving is educational and worthwhile for a pilot. However, the training you need is in operating the parachute. Again, the cost of the training is dirt cheap, compared to the alternative. If you're making your choice based on cost, then you're messed up in your priority. You think you can't afford to wear a parachute. Don't let your last thought on this earth be that you can't afford not to.
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My remarks about wearing a parachute were directed to aerobatic flying only. I know it is usual in the US, indeed mandatory for dual aeros, to wear one and no doubt this has colured attitudes, but it is not required over here and until quite recently hardly anyone did.
Parachutes make good sense for formation flying, air racing (except F1), glider flying, indeed in any situation where aeroplanes will be in close company, the risk of collision is high and the relative speed should one occur will be small.
When I see a pilot wearing 'chute and bone dome for a flight in the box over an airfield I do wonder what he thinks is waiting for him up there to which these two items are an appropriate or proportionate response.
The main risk, I think, is an elevator restriction from some object dropped or left in the cockpit or abandoned by an engineer during maintenance. To discover this at 2000ft in the vertical down after a stall turn, work out what is wrong and jump is impossible; there simply is not time. The proper way to deal with this risk is pre-flight inspection and a regular use of flying suits to zip all items in place.
I do not say that there are not situations where the carriage of a 'chute is not of use. A long over water crossing in a Pitts comes to mind. Neither do I say that one cannot be caught out. What I do say is that the actual risks inherent in aerobatic flight are not best addresed by these means. A careful and thorough pre flight plan and an assessment of the exact sortie to be flown are of more use in my opinion.
The 'one other option' argument is also a potential trap where a pilot may fall between two stools; wait not long enough but delay too long.
Parachutes make good sense for formation flying, air racing (except F1), glider flying, indeed in any situation where aeroplanes will be in close company, the risk of collision is high and the relative speed should one occur will be small.
When I see a pilot wearing 'chute and bone dome for a flight in the box over an airfield I do wonder what he thinks is waiting for him up there to which these two items are an appropriate or proportionate response.
The main risk, I think, is an elevator restriction from some object dropped or left in the cockpit or abandoned by an engineer during maintenance. To discover this at 2000ft in the vertical down after a stall turn, work out what is wrong and jump is impossible; there simply is not time. The proper way to deal with this risk is pre-flight inspection and a regular use of flying suits to zip all items in place.
I do not say that there are not situations where the carriage of a 'chute is not of use. A long over water crossing in a Pitts comes to mind. Neither do I say that one cannot be caught out. What I do say is that the actual risks inherent in aerobatic flight are not best addresed by these means. A careful and thorough pre flight plan and an assessment of the exact sortie to be flown are of more use in my opinion.
The 'one other option' argument is also a potential trap where a pilot may fall between two stools; wait not long enough but delay too long.
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TB, "G-BUTO" was abondoned at about 1200ft in an inverted spin, (Going down about 4000ft/sec?) during comp practice. About 20sec under the canopy. You really are denying yourself that last chance, and by your influence, others as well. No amount of planning will prepare you for the unexpected. Believe me!
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No, I am not. It is a personal choice based upon one's own assessment of the various risks involved. I said that many would disagree with me and they are welcome to do so.
I will not comment on the particular crash you mention save to say that more time should have been spent on dual training to gain some basic aerobatic competance. An inverted spin off a stall turn and an inverted spin from a roll off the top are the two classic aerobatic 'schoolboy howlers'. You really have to be an awfully bad aerobatic pilot to do it by mistake.
A parachute should not become an excuse or 'comfort blanket', to fly beyond experience, competance, or training. That really could be very dangerous indeed.
I will not comment on the particular crash you mention save to say that more time should have been spent on dual training to gain some basic aerobatic competance. An inverted spin off a stall turn and an inverted spin from a roll off the top are the two classic aerobatic 'schoolboy howlers'. You really have to be an awfully bad aerobatic pilot to do it by mistake.
A parachute should not become an excuse or 'comfort blanket', to fly beyond experience, competance, or training. That really could be very dangerous indeed.
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Cessna Aerobats do have jetisonable doors you pull a d loop at the front of the door and it pulls both the hinge pins out and then the doors will fly of. However I have done some aeros in cessna and no parachute but this is a club aircraft. However if i were even to go near a pitts or extra I wouldnt dream of flying withoiut a parachute.
David
David
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TB, your last sentence is laughable, a bit similar to the authorities attitude to parachutes in WW1. I don't think you can have been involved in comp aeros, or you would know that to keep it looking right to the judges when it is going a bit pearshaped, the controls can end up in some funny positions. Beware of over-confidence. Guppy speaks with knowledge.
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My view comes from a close involvement with competition aeros as pilot, judge and trainer at all levels from standard to unlimited.
You are free to take a different one if you wish.
You are free to take a different one if you wish.
OK, noted. I'm still disappointed at your occasional choice of phrase, ie "schoolboy howler".
A little less conversation,
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Originally Posted by Tigerbatics
My view comes from a close involvement with competition aeros as pilot, judge and trainer at all levels from standard to unlimited.
I suspect that Tigerbatics may have indeed seen me don bonedome and parachute for a critique session in the overhead at WW on one of his visits - and clearly I was demonstrating a woeful Lack of Moral Fibre. The helmet is there because the statistics say sooner or later the engine is going to expire - should it expire mid-sequence, the forced landing is likely to be messier than most, and I'd rather the contents of my skull remained in place. Clearly, the parachute isn't going to help with an elevator restriction at the bottom of a down-line - as happened to a Yak-55 driver of my parish at Sywell a few years back when a coin jammed in the base of the stick linkage - the solution in that case being to exert enough brute strength (in spite of the driver being a sensitive artistic type) on the stick to cut the coin in half - maybe a decent set of biceps should be mandated as a required safety item for Yak-55 drivers? Bull-worker on someone's Christmas list perhaps?
I'd be interested to hear Tigerbatic's views on Sean Tucker's bale-out last year when the elevator linkage broke during a practise session - was he setting a bad example by stepping over the side? or should he have done the decent thing, and tried to land it using only the trimmer?
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Yes Ed you are right.
Our Yak-55 will be flying in the next week or two and next season at least one of us will be wearing a bonedome and one a parachute. The bonedome following the forced landing in the Pitts almost exactly a year ago.
I will wear neither. Never have and don't want to now. Absolutly no objection to anyone who wants to wear either or both. But I'm far happier free of those objects.
Bull-worker sounds like a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. Might also ask Father Christmas for a flying suit with zipped pockets for the odd coin, which is all I'll have left after paying for the fuel.
Seriously, it is nothing to do with fibre of any sort, diet or moral, just my preference and my assessment of the best way to manage the particular risks involved. There will always be cases where a 'chute is a lifesaver ( Tucker's probably ) just as you can, no doubt, find cases where yellow jackets have prevented accidents on airfields. It's just that both fall outside the range of those risks I feel a need to protect myself against.
Our Yak-55 will be flying in the next week or two and next season at least one of us will be wearing a bonedome and one a parachute. The bonedome following the forced landing in the Pitts almost exactly a year ago.
I will wear neither. Never have and don't want to now. Absolutly no objection to anyone who wants to wear either or both. But I'm far happier free of those objects.
Bull-worker sounds like a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. Might also ask Father Christmas for a flying suit with zipped pockets for the odd coin, which is all I'll have left after paying for the fuel.
Seriously, it is nothing to do with fibre of any sort, diet or moral, just my preference and my assessment of the best way to manage the particular risks involved. There will always be cases where a 'chute is a lifesaver ( Tucker's probably ) just as you can, no doubt, find cases where yellow jackets have prevented accidents on airfields. It's just that both fall outside the range of those risks I feel a need to protect myself against.
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Parachutes make good sense for formation flying, air racing (except F1), glider flying, indeed in any situation where aeroplanes will be in close company, the risk of collision is high and the relative speed should one occur will be small.
So far as a helmet...regulations require that I wear one, and last year I was glad to have one on during a turbine engine failure that resulted in a forced landing on a hillside. The failure occured at 150' AGL, an offered little opportunity for the use of a parachute.
Aerobatics are another matter entirely, and it is there that a parachute certainly should be worn.
A little less conversation,
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Eddie Goggins' account of the Malta Aero GP bale-out I mentioned above is now on-line in the BAeA Aerobatics News Review
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/Journal_Nov_07.pdf
Page 37.
Definately worth a read.
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/Journal_Nov_07.pdf
Page 37.
Definately worth a read.
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1 - For most Spam cans it would be very hard work to get out of the plane in the air with rear trailing doors
Glider pilots wear parachutes because they like congregating in the same thermal and can bump into each other .
I have tried wearing a parachute in the Airbus, it really unsettles the passengers!
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I am no expert on the Luscombe, but would have thought with trailing doors (not likely to be quick release hinges) and an impact at 1500 ft the chances of bailing out at an altitude the parachute would do any good are pretty low.
A tragic accident, but not really support for wearing parachutes.
A tragic accident, but not really support for wearing parachutes.
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Realistically - what is the minimum height for successful use of a parachute? (for those people who do not have Eddie Goggins' lightning fast reactions - that was an amazing feat!).
I DO wear a parachute , but have always felt that it would not be much help during a competition if it goes wrong towards the bottom of the box (1000').
During a conversation I had some years ago with a very experienced warbird pilot he asserted that unless you actually formulate an egress plan (including abandonment height) BEFORE the flight, the parachute is likely to be useless. Why? - because pilots tend to carry on trying to recover until it's too late. It's a very difficult decision to jump out of an aeroplane for most people and thinking one more turn and it might recover.....????
I don't know if this is true, but would be interested to hear other people's opinions..
I know the RAF pilots include an abandonment height as part of the briefing before aerobatics, so there might be something in this..?
I DO wear a parachute , but have always felt that it would not be much help during a competition if it goes wrong towards the bottom of the box (1000').
During a conversation I had some years ago with a very experienced warbird pilot he asserted that unless you actually formulate an egress plan (including abandonment height) BEFORE the flight, the parachute is likely to be useless. Why? - because pilots tend to carry on trying to recover until it's too late. It's a very difficult decision to jump out of an aeroplane for most people and thinking one more turn and it might recover.....????
I don't know if this is true, but would be interested to hear other people's opinions..
I know the RAF pilots include an abandonment height as part of the briefing before aerobatics, so there might be something in this..?
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Waldopepper, I think you are right. In fact, I'm amazed that you haven't already decided on a decision height for yourself, since you are already wearing a parachute.
I think a decision height should be so that you have sufficient time to:
- Jettison the canopy/open the doors
- Release the seat belts, get rid of headset and anything else that's in the way
- Get out the aircraft, considering that it might be at Vne, inverted or spinning, or any combination thereof.
- Pull the chute (and do you need to be more or less stable before you pull, to avoid tangling the lines or not?)
- Let the chute deploy and slow you down
- Still have a few seconds left to steer clear of the worst of the terrain, and setup for an into-wind landing
Below that height, realistically, you might as well jump out without a parachute since it's not going to deploy in time. Or better: stay in whatever is left of the aircraft, try to steer it towards the softest spot available with the lowest velocity you can manage, and then let the airframe take most of the impact forces.
Any aeros pilot who already did this calculation? What's your decision height and how did you calculate it?
I think a decision height should be so that you have sufficient time to:
- Jettison the canopy/open the doors
- Release the seat belts, get rid of headset and anything else that's in the way
- Get out the aircraft, considering that it might be at Vne, inverted or spinning, or any combination thereof.
- Pull the chute (and do you need to be more or less stable before you pull, to avoid tangling the lines or not?)
- Let the chute deploy and slow you down
- Still have a few seconds left to steer clear of the worst of the terrain, and setup for an into-wind landing
Below that height, realistically, you might as well jump out without a parachute since it's not going to deploy in time. Or better: stay in whatever is left of the aircraft, try to steer it towards the softest spot available with the lowest velocity you can manage, and then let the airframe take most of the impact forces.
Any aeros pilot who already did this calculation? What's your decision height and how did you calculate it?
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Pull the chute (and do you need to be more or less stable before you pull, to avoid tangling the lines or not?)
