Line Up And Wait
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Chafford Hundred
Line Up And Wait
Hello,
If you were given the conditional instruction "After the landing/departing aircraft line up and wait"
Do you still wait for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up?
For example if you were at a field with a runway say 1600m long and the landing aircraft missed the first taxi way off the runway, would you wait for him to call vacated before lining up or once he has passed you would you be expected to line up and wait for take off clearance?
Thanks for you help.
If you were given the conditional instruction "After the landing/departing aircraft line up and wait"
Do you still wait for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up?
For example if you were at a field with a runway say 1600m long and the landing aircraft missed the first taxi way off the runway, would you wait for him to call vacated before lining up or once he has passed you would you be expected to line up and wait for take off clearance?
Thanks for you help.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
Once the aircraft involved has passed, you enter the runway, line up and wait. You'll get take-off clearance as soon as he has vacated (normally).
If ATC wants you to hold short of the runway until the aircraft has vacated, you'll get a "hold short" instruction, followed by a "cleared take-off".
There was a thread here about a related subject "ready for departure" about a month or so ago. Lots of good info on that one.
If ATC wants you to hold short of the runway until the aircraft has vacated, you'll get a "hold short" instruction, followed by a "cleared take-off".
There was a thread here about a related subject "ready for departure" about a month or so ago. Lots of good info on that one.
niknak
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
From: UK
It means exactly what it says, once the landing aircraft has passed you, you line up and wait, nothing more, nothing less.
There are specific rules which we must apply when issuing a conditional clearance such as this, not least that such clearances must be completely unambiguous.
If you aren't happy with the instruction, because you can't see the landing aircraft or you aren't sure, don't accept it, say so and remain at the holding point.
There are specific rules which we must apply when issuing a conditional clearance such as this, not least that such clearances must be completely unambiguous.
If you aren't happy with the instruction, because you can't see the landing aircraft or you aren't sure, don't accept it, say so and remain at the holding point.
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
From: one dot low as usual
Do as asked .. line up and wait. The landing pilot is hardly going to need to use the piece of runway you're about to occupy, so get into position and be ready to go. Invariably many "line up and waits" are converted to "clear for take off" as soon as you align on the centreline as the preceding a/c has just vacated. It's all about minimum runway occupancy if the airport is busy. Wait for the guy to vacate before you line up is just a waste of runway time.
Final decision always rests with the PIC, so if you're subsequently cleared for take off and the prior traffic has his tail stuck over the runway, refuse the clearance. Don't forget the controller in the tower probably has a better view, and certainly a "bigger picture" than you.
Final decision always rests with the PIC, so if you're subsequently cleared for take off and the prior traffic has his tail stuck over the runway, refuse the clearance. Don't forget the controller in the tower probably has a better view, and certainly a "bigger picture" than you.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Line up and wait is exactly that! I can think of at least one airport in the southern UK that if you don't line up as the landing aircraft is passing you you won't get to line up at all due to the next landing traffic.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
From: Anywhere
If you were given the conditional instruction "After the landing/departing aircraft line up and wait"
Do you still wait for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up?
For example if you were at a field with a runway say 1600m long and the landing aircraft missed the first taxi way off the runway, would you wait for him to call vacated before lining up or once he has passed you would you be expected to line up and wait for take off clearance?
Do you still wait for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up?
For example if you were at a field with a runway say 1600m long and the landing aircraft missed the first taxi way off the runway, would you wait for him to call vacated before lining up or once he has passed you would you be expected to line up and wait for take off clearance?
Conditional clearances are used to speed things up - i.e, you know someone is about to call you, so get another transmission / instruction out of the way in the free air time you have.
Now - if I've got two inbounds, with a gap in between to depart you - you'll get the conditional clearance that you describe. Any delay waiting for the first aircraft to vacate means you could baulk the second inbound - so as soon as it's passed you, get your backside on the runway and be ready.
After all - what are you worried about? The last time I looked there weren't that many aircraft fitted with reverse gear - the guy on the runway isn't going to back into you is he?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
From: UK
Do that to me at certain times of the day and you are likely to have your line up clearance cancelled followed by a VERY long wait.
Do let us know when you are on duty please.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
I understand the clearance Chilli talks about, and he has probably given me that clearance himself on several occasions. In the circumstances he describes it makes perfect sense.
I cannot help feeling vulnerable, however, when sitting on an empty runway just waiting for a takeoff clearance. At one foreign airport I sat for aound 10 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance (I believe the controller had to get on the landline to the big airport down the road).
I was getting twitchy I can tell you, as apart from having no reverse gear this aircraft had no wing mirrors either, so I didn't know what might be coming down the approach.
I cannot help feeling vulnerable, however, when sitting on an empty runway just waiting for a takeoff clearance. At one foreign airport I sat for aound 10 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance (I believe the controller had to get on the landline to the big airport down the road).
I was getting twitchy I can tell you, as apart from having no reverse gear this aircraft had no wing mirrors either, so I didn't know what might be coming down the approach.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
Had the same situation a while ago. All lined up and ready to go, but no take-off clearance and no word from the controller. Turned out to be a scramble from the police helicopter, who was on another frequency and needed to cross my departure path.
Yes, it does make you feel vulnerable, even though there's no other traffic on the frequency, let alone traffic receiving a "cleared to land". A "line up and wait, expect departure (take-off?) clearance in xx seconds/minutes due to ..." would definitely give me more sense of security, that the controller knows what he's doing.
Plus, aren't conditional clearances like this only given above certain weather minima? Such that a landing aircraft (or an aircraft taking off from the end, while you are lined up and waiting at an intersection) could see the whole runway and thus spot you before it's too late?
Yes, it does make you feel vulnerable, even though there's no other traffic on the frequency, let alone traffic receiving a "cleared to land". A "line up and wait, expect departure (take-off?) clearance in xx seconds/minutes due to ..." would definitely give me more sense of security, that the controller knows what he's doing.
Plus, aren't conditional clearances like this only given above certain weather minima? Such that a landing aircraft (or an aircraft taking off from the end, while you are lined up and waiting at an intersection) could see the whole runway and thus spot you before it's too late?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
All lined up and ready to go, but no take-off clearance and no word from the controller.
"G-AB lined up"
usually produces something along the lines of
"G-AB standby" (ie, shut up I'm busy)
"G-AB hold your position" (ie, no I haven't forgotten you)
"G-AB clear take off" (ie, whoops, sorry)
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
From: The Front of Beyond
I've be asked to line up and hold, and then forgotten about. After a few minutes he tower then asked me what I was waiting for, so I told them "A departure clearance". They'd forgotten that they'd only given me a line up and hold clearance whilst the landing aircraft vacated. To be fair they'd been busy with other calls from circuit and transiting traffic as well as choppers and glider tugs.
Brooklands
Brooklands
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
From: one dot low as usual
"G-AB lined up"
Not a standard RT call. I'd simply repeat the proper phraseology "G-AB, ready for departure". Non standard calls, particularly in the scenario described could be a recipe for an accident.
Not a standard RT call. I'd simply repeat the proper phraseology "G-AB, ready for departure". Non standard calls, particularly in the scenario described could be a recipe for an accident.
Pompey till I die
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
From: Guildford
Strangely something similar happened to me the other day
My mistake was that I waited for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up and waiting (it was very quiet and so I thought why take any risks, I may as well enjoy all of this wonderful space).
I then called "G-ABCD Holding" before getting clearence to go.
I then called "G-ABCD Holding" before getting clearence to go.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
If you get an instruction "line up and wait" and you respond with "G-ABCD holding" then, technically, you are refusing a conditional clearance. No problem with that, it is your right as PIC and you don't have to provide a reason for it.
What you obviously should NOT do is enter the runway anyway without further instruction to do so. If you promised ATC to hold, you should continue to hold.
What you obviously should NOT do is enter the runway anyway without further instruction to do so. If you promised ATC to hold, you should continue to hold.
Last edited by BackPacker; 29th November 2007 at 22:46. Reason: Deleted some stuff that was not relevant
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: Cambridge UK
<quote>
My mistake was that I waited for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up and waiting (it was very quiet and so I thought why take any risks, I may as well enjoy all of this wonderful space).
I then called "G-ABCD Holding" before getting clearence to go.
</quote>
You told the tower you were holding when you was occupying the runway?
My mistake was that I waited for the aircraft to leave the runway before lining up and waiting (it was very quiet and so I thought why take any risks, I may as well enjoy all of this wonderful space).
I then called "G-ABCD Holding" before getting clearence to go.
</quote>
You told the tower you were holding when you was occupying the runway?
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
Plus, aren't conditional clearances like this only given above certain weather minima? Such that a landing aircraft (or an aircraft taking off from the end, while you are lined up and waiting at an intersection) could see the whole runway and thus spot you before it's too late?