Night Qualification Experiences
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Night Qualification Experiences
About to start my NQ and although I can (and will) ask my FI about exactly what we will be getting up to,thought it would be useful to hear others experiences.
During my PPL training I worried immensely about the thought of having to do a forced landing at night (wish now I had built the NQ into my PPL).
I see the NQ for me useful if getting back late in the day,not planning (yet) to actually set off at night.
Let's hear what is was like for you.
MM
During my PPL training I worried immensely about the thought of having to do a forced landing at night (wish now I had built the NQ into my PPL).
I see the NQ for me useful if getting back late in the day,not planning (yet) to actually set off at night.
Let's hear what is was like for you.
MM
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Almost completed my NQ at East Mids. I am quite enjoying it, seeing all of the pretty lights at night.
My instructor took a video on the Saturday before Bonfire night with my camera, look out for all of the fireworks!
As for forced landings, just aim for a dark spot on the ground and hope for the best!
My instructor took a video on the Saturday before Bonfire night with my camera, look out for all of the fireworks!
As for forced landings, just aim for a dark spot on the ground and hope for the best!
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During my PPL training I worried immensely about the thought of having to do a forced landing at night
Pick a dark patch - turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see... turn it off again
Originally Posted by Slopey
Pick a dark patch - turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see... turn it off again
-- IFMU
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My NQ training, started when the clocks went back, consisted of the following:
Initial discussion of what equipment would be required, basically lots of Torches with filters to make them suitable for night flying.
Briefing on techniques and issues associated with flight at night
1hr Night Flight appreciation/aclimatisation including a basic introduction to the techniques/issues associated with flight at night. Also an opportunity to check out all these torches!
1hr Circuit Training including Airfiled lighting in various states, and cockpit lighting failures.
Briefing on the legalities of flight at night in the UK.
10mins Circuit Check prior to solo, then 1hr of Solo circuits consisting of five takeoffs and full stop landings (signed off by the instructor).
1hr Navigation Training.
Repeat of 1hr Navigation Training having failed the previous hour.
Various trips to the airfield to do a solo navigation trip, but clocks then went forward and night flying stopped for the Summer.
Arguement with CFI as to why he wouldn't sign me off. He insisted that a solo navigation flight was necessary for him to see that I was safe. (I put it to him that this was a bit rich, as he had been prepared to send me off on a solo navigation flight so he obviously thought me safe
).
I still don't have my NQ, but I won't be going back to that school to complete it!
Be aware that the NQ is even more prone to weather cancellation - other factors start to come into play, e.g. fog / icing / cloud.
I decided early on that if the engine failed, I was going to land on a nicely lit road. You can also manage the risk by chosing how little moon light you will fly with, and where you fly. Flying over Snowdon at night does give you fewer options than a flight along the M4 corridor.
I'm afraid the standard advice of "Pick a dark patch - turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see... turn it off again " doesn't cut it for me. I'm turning the light on and leaving it on. I want to see what I'm going to hit! To my mind, you need to remain in as much control as possible, whatever the state of your landing site, be it a cliff face, forest or lake. Never stop flying the 'plane.
It's a great experience. Hope you have a good time.
tp
Initial discussion of what equipment would be required, basically lots of Torches with filters to make them suitable for night flying.
Briefing on techniques and issues associated with flight at night
1hr Night Flight appreciation/aclimatisation including a basic introduction to the techniques/issues associated with flight at night. Also an opportunity to check out all these torches!
1hr Circuit Training including Airfiled lighting in various states, and cockpit lighting failures.
Briefing on the legalities of flight at night in the UK.
10mins Circuit Check prior to solo, then 1hr of Solo circuits consisting of five takeoffs and full stop landings (signed off by the instructor).
1hr Navigation Training.
Repeat of 1hr Navigation Training having failed the previous hour.
Various trips to the airfield to do a solo navigation trip, but clocks then went forward and night flying stopped for the Summer.
Arguement with CFI as to why he wouldn't sign me off. He insisted that a solo navigation flight was necessary for him to see that I was safe. (I put it to him that this was a bit rich, as he had been prepared to send me off on a solo navigation flight so he obviously thought me safe
). I still don't have my NQ, but I won't be going back to that school to complete it!
Be aware that the NQ is even more prone to weather cancellation - other factors start to come into play, e.g. fog / icing / cloud.
I decided early on that if the engine failed, I was going to land on a nicely lit road. You can also manage the risk by chosing how little moon light you will fly with, and where you fly. Flying over Snowdon at night does give you fewer options than a flight along the M4 corridor.
I'm afraid the standard advice of "Pick a dark patch - turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see... turn it off again " doesn't cut it for me. I'm turning the light on and leaving it on. I want to see what I'm going to hit! To my mind, you need to remain in as much control as possible, whatever the state of your landing site, be it a cliff face, forest or lake. Never stop flying the 'plane.
It's a great experience. Hope you have a good time.
tp
NQ
tacpot.
>Arguement with CFI as to why he wouldn't sign me off. He insisted that a solo navigation flight was necessary for him to see that I was safe. (I put it to him that this was a bit rich, as he had been prepared to send me off on a solo navigation flight so he obviously thought me safe ). <
Don't really understand the above comment.
Read LASORS E4.2.
States 1 hour DUAL navigation - no requirement for SOLO nav.
Only Solo requirement for NQ is E4.2.c. - 5 take-offs and full stop landings as P1C of aeroplanes.
Only a good idea (and good fun) to do a Solo night nav. or, even better, with a mate. -
- then regularly of course.
Rgds, Sleeve.
>Arguement with CFI as to why he wouldn't sign me off. He insisted that a solo navigation flight was necessary for him to see that I was safe. (I put it to him that this was a bit rich, as he had been prepared to send me off on a solo navigation flight so he obviously thought me safe ). <
Don't really understand the above comment.
Read LASORS E4.2.
States 1 hour DUAL navigation - no requirement for SOLO nav.
Only Solo requirement for NQ is E4.2.c. - 5 take-offs and full stop landings as P1C of aeroplanes.
Only a good idea (and good fun) to do a Solo night nav. or, even better, with a mate. -
- then regularly of course.
Rgds, Sleeve.
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In some of the other threads in this forum there are stark reminders of the differences between the US and the UK. But here in the US this is EXACTLY what I was taught both in FW and helos
There was the usual banter about trying to hit a road/beach/field - but with the donkey stopped nobody can hear you coming, if you hit a car you'll likely kill them aswell as yourself, and it's best to avoid the swap in FL, both for impact and for crocs!
Over here, with a decent moon, there should be at least a passable field availiable. Hopefully!
There was some debate about the survivability of landing on trees - the feeling being it was reasonably survivable - anyone have any stats on that?
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Just checked my logbook. My five-hour night thing nine years ago consisted of:
* Trip 1 - Dual night famil/navex/circuits (7 landings) - 1:55
* Trip 2 - Dual night circuits (2 landings) - 0:25
* Trip 3 - Solo night circuits (4 landings) - 0:50
* Trip 4 - Dual night navex (1 landing) - 1:00
* Trip 5 - Solo night navex (1 landing) - 0:50
Trip 1 done on day 1, trips 2-5 done the following evening. Total five hours in two days, job done! Just use it for getting back a bit late if necessary (puts less pressure on getting back and allowing time for a divert too), and worth it for that alone. I still make an effort to keep night current now (i.e. able to carry pax), just to cover the return late thing.
Andy
* Trip 1 - Dual night famil/navex/circuits (7 landings) - 1:55
* Trip 2 - Dual night circuits (2 landings) - 0:25
* Trip 3 - Solo night circuits (4 landings) - 0:50
* Trip 4 - Dual night navex (1 landing) - 1:00
* Trip 5 - Solo night navex (1 landing) - 0:50
Trip 1 done on day 1, trips 2-5 done the following evening. Total five hours in two days, job done! Just use it for getting back a bit late if necessary (puts less pressure on getting back and allowing time for a divert too), and worth it for that alone. I still make an effort to keep night current now (i.e. able to carry pax), just to cover the return late thing.
Andy
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Mine consisted of:
Session 1: A nav jolly off around Yorkshire
Session 2: Dual circuits followed by solo circuits
Session 3: Doing some instrument approaches at night to get the rest of the hours done (already had my IMC rating)
Enjoyed it. Only things I didn't really expect were not being able to see the runway lights nearly as easily as I had expected, and flaring too high. Little things easily accomodated once you know about them.
Session 1: A nav jolly off around Yorkshire
Session 2: Dual circuits followed by solo circuits
Session 3: Doing some instrument approaches at night to get the rest of the hours done (already had my IMC rating)
Enjoyed it. Only things I didn't really expect were not being able to see the runway lights nearly as easily as I had expected, and flaring too high. Little things easily accomodated once you know about them.
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Night 1: San Diego to Santa Monica, via the LAX overhead, for dinner. Tower was closed for departure at 22:00, so self announced back over LAX. Minor emergency en-route when the paper lampshade my instructor had fashioned to reduce glare from the bare cabin bulb caught fire. Practiced spotting the beacons of the various civil and mil airfields we passed.
Night 2: Three dual circuits followed by five solo "full stop and go's". The runway was long enough to allow this without taxi or back-tracking.
Night3: Nav Ex over the mountains to Palm Springs. After landing we taxied straight back to the hold, following an Alaskan 737 that loomed out of the darkness ahead. Our initial guess from a few hundred metres behind was that it was a light twin! Climbing 10,000 ft from sea level over mountainous terrain in the dark certainly focusses the mind on accurate navigation.
Similar to Shunter, I had never realised how directional runway lights are.
Night 2: Three dual circuits followed by five solo "full stop and go's". The runway was long enough to allow this without taxi or back-tracking.
Night3: Nav Ex over the mountains to Palm Springs. After landing we taxied straight back to the hold, following an Alaskan 737 that loomed out of the darkness ahead. Our initial guess from a few hundred metres behind was that it was a light twin! Climbing 10,000 ft from sea level over mountainous terrain in the dark certainly focusses the mind on accurate navigation.
Similar to Shunter, I had never realised how directional runway lights are.
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tacpot said:
How can you "fail" the navigation training? Its not an exam...
As you have the one hour solo including 5 full stop landings signed off, and 5 hours overall, it might be worth a chat with the CAA to see what they think.
Of course, there's nothing to stop you taking a refresher with an instructor if you haven't flown at night for a while post NQ issue.
1hr Navigation Training.
Repeat of 1hr Navigation Training having failed the previous hour.
Repeat of 1hr Navigation Training having failed the previous hour.
As you have the one hour solo including 5 full stop landings signed off, and 5 hours overall, it might be worth a chat with the CAA to see what they think.
Of course, there's nothing to stop you taking a refresher with an instructor if you haven't flown at night for a while post NQ issue.
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For what it's worth (not very much!
), I thoroughly enjoyed my NQ. Did it just before the clocks in the early part of this year, abouta month after my skills test. Fantastic experience, extremely valuable and well worth doing!
), I thoroughly enjoyed my NQ. Did it just before the clocks in the early part of this year, abouta month after my skills test. Fantastic experience, extremely valuable and well worth doing!
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I worried immensely about the thought of having to do a forced landing at night
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I pointed the CFI at LASORS and the application form (FCL 111) but he wouldn't budge, kept insisting I wasn't safe until I'd done a solo trip.
Instructor wouldn't let me do (attempt) the solo nav trip until I'd performed satisfactorily on the dual nav trip. I was pretty pissed off because my only fault on the first nav trip was I wandered off course within the first 10 minutes of leaving the circuit and couldn't locate myself quickly enough. After that problem the rest of that nav trip went fine, as did the following dual trip. I was expecting to be signed off at that point!
But no, you have five minutes of Night Nav instruction and five minutes to prove you've absorbed everything!
I don't see a point going to the CAA, I don't think they will over turn this examiner's decision, unless anyone knows otherwise...
I might try to obtain my training record (to pass onto my next school
) to see if the CFI wasn't telling me something my instructor should have.
tp
Instructor wouldn't let me do (attempt) the solo nav trip until I'd performed satisfactorily on the dual nav trip. I was pretty pissed off because my only fault on the first nav trip was I wandered off course within the first 10 minutes of leaving the circuit and couldn't locate myself quickly enough. After that problem the rest of that nav trip went fine, as did the following dual trip. I was expecting to be signed off at that point!
But no, you have five minutes of Night Nav instruction and five minutes to prove you've absorbed everything!
I don't see a point going to the CAA, I don't think they will over turn this examiner's decision, unless anyone knows otherwise...
I might try to obtain my training record (to pass onto my next school
) to see if the CFI wasn't telling me something my instructor should have. tp
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It would be interesting to do a review of night FLs.
My perception is that the outcome is on average not too bad. However, clearly there is a fair element of luck involved.
I have a few things I wont do - unless I really really have to. One of those is flying a single at night - but each to their own.
My perception is that the outcome is on average not too bad. However, clearly there is a fair element of luck involved.
I have a few things I wont do - unless I really really have to. One of those is flying a single at night - but each to their own.
Originally Posted by Slopey
There was some debate about the survivability of landing on trees - the feeling being it was reasonably survivable - anyone have any stats on that?
At my old club one of our tow pilots had ridden through a tree crash in his friend's Maule. Nobody hurt. Some factor of luck, but trees can be good to crash into, if you have to crash into something. The problem becomes if you fall from the trees. And, if you are hurt, can they find you. All worse at night.
Originally Posted by tacpot
I'm afraid the standard advice of "Pick a dark patch - turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see... turn it off again "
Landing on a road at night scares me a little bit. Not for the cars, but for the wires. In my part of the world, most roads have wires cris-crossing them.
-- IFMU
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A question for the night drivers here. Sorry it might sound stupid but I really have no clue about night flying.
I'd imagine you can't really see hills or mountains at night unless there's roads or villages, so how do you choose your cruising altitude over high terrain ? I'd imagine it would be something to do with your MSA for the area you're in ?
In the Scottish TMA there's a few bits of high terrain and I don't think the controllers would be able to keep you separated from IFR traffic.
But maybe am just talking rubbish !
Ivor
I'd imagine you can't really see hills or mountains at night unless there's roads or villages, so how do you choose your cruising altitude over high terrain ? I'd imagine it would be something to do with your MSA for the area you're in ?
In the Scottish TMA there's a few bits of high terrain and I don't think the controllers would be able to keep you separated from IFR traffic.
But maybe am just talking rubbish !
Ivor
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In my part of the world, most roads have wires cris-crossing them
