ECLIPSE 500 in the U.K.
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ECLIPSE 500 in the U.K.
The first Eclipse 500 will be delivered to the U.K. within the next week.
N500UK routed via Glasgow & Milan to reach Dubai for the airshow.
A bit cynical about the VLJ concept, but please Santa, I will find space in the hangar chimney on the night of the 24th Dec
Will size a couple of images to post tomorrow although visible with slick later today.
N500UK routed via Glasgow & Milan to reach Dubai for the airshow.
A bit cynical about the VLJ concept, but please Santa, I will find space in the hangar chimney on the night of the 24th Dec
Will size a couple of images to post tomorrow although visible with slick later today.
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Are these approved by EASA (yet), ie: will it eventually make its way on the G register - or will it have to stay on an N reg for the time being?
Apologies for ignorance, not been following the progress of VLJ's too closely!
Apologies for ignorance, not been following the progress of VLJ's too closely!
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Sorry all - Photobucket down here in the UAE - pics later or Friday as flying tomorrow.
They are producing about 30 per month at present, so number 900 off the line about.....
They are producing about 30 per month at present, so number 900 off the line about.....
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With EASA competence for third country aircraft just around the corner, you would be very unwise to buy one (any VLJ, not just the Eclipse) without ensuring it had EASA type certification.
That's a reasonable precautionary position for a purchase of anything in aviation, but the eloquent "European Union" language used hides the fact that there is no apparent way in which N-reg can be forced to comply with EASA maintenance requirements without EASA accepting FAA airframe and equipment certification, which then makes the subject moot anyway....
EASA cannot have control over foreign aircraft. Under ICAO, all they can do is somehow control those which are long term parked in the EU. If - like many jets - you fly around the place, you will be just another plane flying around..... This, no doubt, is one of many reasons why the DfT kicking-out move was dropped. The regular travellers would escape any parking ban.
I would delay a purchase for a much more pragmatic reason: to make sure the bugs are ironed out. A year or two. Mind you, with 30 months to run, that will take care of itself
I wonder how many of those positions are speculative, and will come up for sale? Lots do, because many position holders run out of money for personal reasons and have to get out.
That's a reasonable precautionary position for a purchase of anything in aviation, but the eloquent "European Union" language used hides the fact that there is no apparent way in which N-reg can be forced to comply with EASA maintenance requirements without EASA accepting FAA airframe and equipment certification, which then makes the subject moot anyway....
EASA cannot have control over foreign aircraft. Under ICAO, all they can do is somehow control those which are long term parked in the EU. If - like many jets - you fly around the place, you will be just another plane flying around..... This, no doubt, is one of many reasons why the DfT kicking-out move was dropped. The regular travellers would escape any parking ban.
I would delay a purchase for a much more pragmatic reason: to make sure the bugs are ironed out. A year or two. Mind you, with 30 months to run, that will take care of itself
I wonder how many of those positions are speculative, and will come up for sale? Lots do, because many position holders run out of money for personal reasons and have to get out.
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What's this, the Eclipse sports Garmin GNS430s? I thought the Avio system was a complete integrated avionics suite like the G1000!? Couldn't they have saved time, money and headaches by installing the G1000 in the first place? Is this a bad decision or does Avio provide a revolution over the Garmin alternative?
Surely they could have incorporated all their "advanced" systems into a special box hooked up with the Garmin...
Surely they could have incorporated all their "advanced" systems into a special box hooked up with the Garmin...
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Gorgeous sexy Eclipse
I have had my eye on one of these babies for a while. It makes the Citation Mustang look like a fat plain older sister!
The aircraft Eclipse had on display at Friedrichshafen really blew me away.
For a total cost of £850K you get a heck of a capable aircraft.
One of my hangar-sharing buddies has a deposit on one, expecting delivery Sept '08, needless to say he is buying mucho US dollars at present while the rate is excellent.
I am very envious - maybe he will persuade me to do the same once I have seen his and helped him polish it (if he'll let me near it!)
In fact I went on the eclipse site this week and had my own little fantasy specifying my own options (including colour scheme), that is how keen I am!
I agree with you IO540 about ironing out the bugs - there will no doubt be further mods which will be built-in to new production aircraft but need to be retrofitted to operational ones and this will mean downtime and be a genuine pain in the backside. As happens with all aircraft though these bugs will continue to be thrown up for the duration of its service life and I guess just get less frequent with time in service.
If I bought one I would need to do the mentor pilot training as I do not have a multi-engine or jet rating (as will my friend) but that could also be a lot of fun.
I would also like to know how people will end up using the aircraft in the air-taxi market in europe. Also I am watching to see whether any max altitude restrictions will be placed on these aircraft.
Interesting times,
SB
The aircraft Eclipse had on display at Friedrichshafen really blew me away.
For a total cost of £850K you get a heck of a capable aircraft.
One of my hangar-sharing buddies has a deposit on one, expecting delivery Sept '08, needless to say he is buying mucho US dollars at present while the rate is excellent.
I am very envious - maybe he will persuade me to do the same once I have seen his and helped him polish it (if he'll let me near it!)
In fact I went on the eclipse site this week and had my own little fantasy specifying my own options (including colour scheme), that is how keen I am!
I agree with you IO540 about ironing out the bugs - there will no doubt be further mods which will be built-in to new production aircraft but need to be retrofitted to operational ones and this will mean downtime and be a genuine pain in the backside. As happens with all aircraft though these bugs will continue to be thrown up for the duration of its service life and I guess just get less frequent with time in service.
If I bought one I would need to do the mentor pilot training as I do not have a multi-engine or jet rating (as will my friend) but that could also be a lot of fun.
I would also like to know how people will end up using the aircraft in the air-taxi market in europe. Also I am watching to see whether any max altitude restrictions will be placed on these aircraft.
Interesting times,
SB
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Originally Posted by deice
What's this, the Eclipse sports Garmin GNS430s?
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It seems many are gearing up to start taxi services with these little buggers, but I don't understand the concept entirely. The Eclipse is supposed to be economical (for a jet), but at the same time very limited in actual performance if you factor in the need for two pilots up front in commercial operations. How much excess capacity do you have for passengers and their bags once the office is occupied?
Will it really work? I seriously doubt it, but stand to be corrected. Perhaps even I'll get a job eventually...
Will it really work? I seriously doubt it, but stand to be corrected. Perhaps even I'll get a job eventually...
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I gather a lot of people in the USA are wondering the same thing.
A few fat Americans (or Brits for that matter) will take the Eclipse to MTOW very quick.
OTOH the USA has a significant market for very short (say 300nm) taxi flights.
A few fat Americans (or Brits for that matter) will take the Eclipse to MTOW very quick.
OTOH the USA has a significant market for very short (say 300nm) taxi flights.
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Mmm, yes, thanks to hamburgers...
300 nm sounds a bit too short to make any use of jet propulsion, or fanjet rather. A turboprop would do better in terms of economy while matching the flight time and even a piston wouldn't lag far behind in terms of overall flight time and economy would be miles better.
I really don't see the benefits of minijets except as marketing BS. It seems many in the general public believe anything with props on it is a small and dangerous contraption, whereas the word JET makes everyone feel safe regardless what tin can you strap them to. It's a bit odd.
On longer flights I'll agree they provide real value, but short hops don't make any sense.
300 nm sounds a bit too short to make any use of jet propulsion, or fanjet rather. A turboprop would do better in terms of economy while matching the flight time and even a piston wouldn't lag far behind in terms of overall flight time and economy would be miles better.
I really don't see the benefits of minijets except as marketing BS. It seems many in the general public believe anything with props on it is a small and dangerous contraption, whereas the word JET makes everyone feel safe regardless what tin can you strap them to. It's a bit odd.
On longer flights I'll agree they provide real value, but short hops don't make any sense.
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The way you are talking, deice, you will have the VCAD* after you
But I agree totally. A turboprop will carry more weight, further, for less money.
A jet is a little bit quicker, but the speed advantage vanishes totally if a fuel stop is needed.
A jet flies a bit higher (except for the Diamond one, 25k ft max) but - assuming a working anti-ice system - a ceiling over 25k improves the mission capability from close to 99% to something over 99%. Probably not worth paying for, in the intended market.
The Epic Dynasty is the one to watch. I suspect that the $millions spent on VLJ hype will largely benefit these new turboprops, because most buyers at that level are not stupid and once they start looking around they will soon realise they could have so much more for similar money.
* VLJ Critics Assasination Dept
But I agree totally. A turboprop will carry more weight, further, for less money.
A jet is a little bit quicker, but the speed advantage vanishes totally if a fuel stop is needed.
A jet flies a bit higher (except for the Diamond one, 25k ft max) but - assuming a working anti-ice system - a ceiling over 25k improves the mission capability from close to 99% to something over 99%. Probably not worth paying for, in the intended market.
The Epic Dynasty is the one to watch. I suspect that the $millions spent on VLJ hype will largely benefit these new turboprops, because most buyers at that level are not stupid and once they start looking around they will soon realise they could have so much more for similar money.
* VLJ Critics Assasination Dept
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Woops:
AVFLASH NEWS
November 14, 2007
Supplier Sues Eclipse, Alleging Lack Of Payment
By Mary Grady, News Writer, Editor
Hampson Aerospace, a U.K.-based company that has been building tail sections in Texas for the Eclipse 500 jet, sued Eclipse Aviation on Tuesday, alleging that required payments have not been made since March, the Albuquerque Journal reported Wednesday. A spokeswoman for Eclipse told the Journal she couldn't comment on the pending litigation. Email and voicemail messages left for Eclipse by AVweb late Wednesday were not returned by our deadline.According to the suit, Hampson agreed to reduce the payments, but Eclipse then said it could rescind the agreement altogether on the basis of fraud, according to the Journal. The suit did not give details of the basis for the fraud allegation. The value of the contract is estimated at $380 million. Eclipse laid off about 100 workers last month, and has run into repeated production delays. This week, however, the company went to the Dubai Air Show for the first time, and sold 12 Eclipse 500 jets to Dubai Aerospace Enterprise Flight Academy (DAEFA). Delivery of these Eclipse 500s will begin next year, the company said in a news release.
AVFLASH NEWS
November 14, 2007
Supplier Sues Eclipse, Alleging Lack Of Payment
By Mary Grady, News Writer, Editor
Hampson Aerospace, a U.K.-based company that has been building tail sections in Texas for the Eclipse 500 jet, sued Eclipse Aviation on Tuesday, alleging that required payments have not been made since March, the Albuquerque Journal reported Wednesday. A spokeswoman for Eclipse told the Journal she couldn't comment on the pending litigation. Email and voicemail messages left for Eclipse by AVweb late Wednesday were not returned by our deadline.According to the suit, Hampson agreed to reduce the payments, but Eclipse then said it could rescind the agreement altogether on the basis of fraud, according to the Journal. The suit did not give details of the basis for the fraud allegation. The value of the contract is estimated at $380 million. Eclipse laid off about 100 workers last month, and has run into repeated production delays. This week, however, the company went to the Dubai Air Show for the first time, and sold 12 Eclipse 500 jets to Dubai Aerospace Enterprise Flight Academy (DAEFA). Delivery of these Eclipse 500s will begin next year, the company said in a news release.
I was beginning to wonder how many posts would be posted on this thread before someone highlighted the disarray that Eclipse are currently in.
Lost their chief engineer, delivered only tens of aircraft not the many hundreds it should be by now, suppliers fleeing the program, shed 10% of staff, the first supplier suing for non-payment (you can bet they won't be the last), by their own admission they almost went bust in the summer, ...
There is a very good site devoted to exposing the reality of Eclipse, although I can see someone else posted a link and PPRuNe has scrambled it (come on chaps!). A Google search will quickly reveal it, however.
The question has to be: how much longer will they survive? I predict Eclipse going TU within months, if not weeks...
Lost their chief engineer, delivered only tens of aircraft not the many hundreds it should be by now, suppliers fleeing the program, shed 10% of staff, the first supplier suing for non-payment (you can bet they won't be the last), by their own admission they almost went bust in the summer, ...
There is a very good site devoted to exposing the reality of Eclipse, although I can see someone else posted a link and PPRuNe has scrambled it (come on chaps!). A Google search will quickly reveal it, however.
The question has to be: how much longer will they survive? I predict Eclipse going TU within months, if not weeks...
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The inside stories about Eclipse are indeed dreadful but hey this is aviation.
I've been in business, mostly very successfully, for nearly 30 years. The practices that go on in aviation are just utterly unbelievable to me as a manufacturer of technical products, yet punters buy into the most dodgy promises, in their hundreds.
Eclipse hangs on a knife edge and has done so since nearly day 1. If they fail it will be just another of many failures. If they pull through, the man will be a hero. I would just hate to be a supplier to an outfit like that. It may actually, just possibly, be better to sell to B&Q.
Being an honest person is as much an advantage in an aviation business as being a triple Y chromosome knuckle dragging heterosexual male is in the New Labour Cabinet.
I've been in business, mostly very successfully, for nearly 30 years. The practices that go on in aviation are just utterly unbelievable to me as a manufacturer of technical products, yet punters buy into the most dodgy promises, in their hundreds.
Eclipse hangs on a knife edge and has done so since nearly day 1. If they fail it will be just another of many failures. If they pull through, the man will be a hero. I would just hate to be a supplier to an outfit like that. It may actually, just possibly, be better to sell to B&Q.
Being an honest person is as much an advantage in an aviation business as being a triple Y chromosome knuckle dragging heterosexual male is in the New Labour Cabinet.
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I still think the Eclipse type aircraft can have it's niche, but like all aircraft it's a compromise, not the solution to flight problems in general. The real issue is should we be burning that much fuel to transport so few people such a short distance? As you say, the Epic is an interesting aircraft, too bad they "stole" the design from R. Noble, but that's business I suppose. Don't know that they're planning to certify it though which makes it useless in Europe. The issue with these incredibly intelligent Turboprops, the Kestrel, PC12, TBM 700, Caravan etc. is that not enough people understand how good they are, and that the Eclipse niche really already is filled by these TPs. Except they're far too expensive I might add.
Personally I'd like to see a certified Lancair Evolution at 1 million US.
SB, if you want to step up from the Mooney, have you considered a TP, and if so which one? I can see they're far more expensive than the Eclipse or Djet but in terms of running cost they should be more economical. I could be wrong however. Just being curious...
Personally I'd like to see a certified Lancair Evolution at 1 million US.
SB, if you want to step up from the Mooney, have you considered a TP, and if so which one? I can see they're far more expensive than the Eclipse or Djet but in terms of running cost they should be more economical. I could be wrong however. Just being curious...
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The Epic Dynasty will be certified, FAA at least so it will be viable as an N-reg. The absolute need for EASA certification will depend on what happens on the regulatory front in Europe; my view is that EASA will have to accept FAA certification eventually.
The Epic Escape TP is more interesting to me; smaller and even faster.
The "obvious" upgrade from a piston is the Jetprop conversion of a Malibu. This is much cheaper than stuff like the TBM700/850. This is crucially below 2000kg so avoids the Eurocontrol route charges which for an avtur engine are of the same order of cost as the fuel itself. Official TAS is limited to about 260kt I think, but by all accounts it has loads of spare power.
OTOH if you want to carry 6 fat people and luggage then you have to go for something big. One can't have it both ways.
Lots of twin piston pilots fly "VFR" to avoid the charges but that is very inflexible (I've done plenty of VFR before I got the IR but being 1400kg not to avoid the charges) unless one is willing to just scud run OCAS regardless of conditions. Some of these end up in the terrain.
The Epic Escape TP is more interesting to me; smaller and even faster.
The "obvious" upgrade from a piston is the Jetprop conversion of a Malibu. This is much cheaper than stuff like the TBM700/850. This is crucially below 2000kg so avoids the Eurocontrol route charges which for an avtur engine are of the same order of cost as the fuel itself. Official TAS is limited to about 260kt I think, but by all accounts it has loads of spare power.
OTOH if you want to carry 6 fat people and luggage then you have to go for something big. One can't have it both ways.
Lots of twin piston pilots fly "VFR" to avoid the charges but that is very inflexible (I've done plenty of VFR before I got the IR but being 1400kg not to avoid the charges) unless one is willing to just scud run OCAS regardless of conditions. Some of these end up in the terrain.