GA landing fees at Norwich EGSH

[Mike Barnard]

I was planning to visit Norwich today until told by the ramp office that their minimum invoice is an eye-popping 45 quid, irrespective of whether fuel is purchased! Has anyone else fallen foul of what appears (listening between the lines) to be a clumsy approach to exclude GA?

Mike

[IO540]

Yes, and they will also confiscate your toothpaste (not kidding).

[hobbit1983]

Yes, going there this weekend. Had initially downloaded their fees & charges .pdf from the website, and on the basis of my aircraft/pax, it was going to be more than that...so when I phoned up to get an answer, on being told it was a flat £45 my first thought was "ah, that's good".

Then that thought was swiftly followed by another, much louder "No, it's bloody not!".

Pity Hethel is a Lotus test track.

[Lister Noble]

You have Old Buckenham ,Beccles and Seething not too far away.
Much cheaper and v friendly.
Lister

[hobbit1983]

Would love to go to Seething - but the circumstances of my trip are such that it'd probably be easier time-wise to go to Norwich (who I'm visiting, taxi times, gotta be back before sunset etc).

And fortunately I have three passengers, who have agreed to share the cost of the landing fee between 4.

[Mike Barnard]

Norwich fees - correction?

I may owe Norwich an apology based on their link:

http://www.norwichairport.co.uk/documents/NorwichAirportFees&Charges_Apr07.pdf

My reading of this is that a GA (i.e. non-transport) flight will only attract the stated landing fee, less 25% for prompt payment. If this is true then I stand corrected, however a real pity the guy in the ramp office gave me a bum steer!
Mike

[hobbit1983]

Mike - when I called up and spoke to (I suspect the same person at) the ramp, I referred to that document, and he said it didn't apply as that was for non-private flights, and quoted me the £45 flat fee.

Having re-read the document - and assuming that the Passenger Load Supplement/Passenger Security charge doesn't apply to private flights - for a 1200kg aircraft this works out at £8.13 x 2.4 half tonnes = £19.51.

When I did my original calculations I included these two charges, but now I think that the defintion of 'private flights' doesn't include these two.

Handling apparently does not also apply to private flights unless requested.

A bit less than £45.....But since it's a 'private flight' apparently that's what's being charged. Have you spoken to them since?

[Johnm]

For a one ton spam can the document suggests £8.13 plus VAT and Parking,

The sting in the tail is the £45 inc vat minimum invoice value.

If you could persuade them to take a credit card payment without issuing an invoice.......

Pig squadron anybody??

[Mike Barnard]

Well, having spoken to yet another very nice chap at Norwich I can report that they indeed are charging £45 for a single landing. However, I'm told if I elect to pay at the end of the month and in that time incur additional landing/parking charges then the £45 min charge will apply to the total bill ... individual landings etc being at the rate shown in their price list. Justification? Apparently the poor dears have to handle commercials out of the same terminal (just like Le Touquet / Le Mans / Deauville etc. etc.) and they've justified the outrageous one-landing charge on the basis of dissuading GA until another GA-specific handling agent come along early next years.

Wouldn't it be poetic justice if by then they had no GA to handle ...

Mike

[Cusco]

Has anyone else fallen foul of what appears (listening between the lines) to be
a clumsy approach to exclude GA?

Yep!:
Solved it by not going there any more.
Cusco

[SkyHawk-N]

Total mismanagement of an airport.

1 - Put up GA prices to drive away GA so that they don't get in the way of the hundreds or airliners that will be landing each day.

2 - Realise that there aren't hundreds of airliners landing each day.

3 - Get all the passengers to pay a £3 'Development Fee' when they enter the terminal to get enough money to expand the airport to attract hundreds of airliners a day.

4 - Airlines operating out of airport very unhappy at terminal charges and reduce number of airliners landing each day.

GA unhappy, Passengers unhappy and Airlines unhappy. Brilliant!

[julian_storey]

Staggering isn't it

I love this country but sometimes I despair at how badly the 'system' copes with light aviation.

[twelveoclockhigh]

If the £45 is a minimum invoice charge then the solution is clear.

Instead of landing at Norwich and paying £45, you go to Norwich and do 3 touch and go's before landing. You still pay the £45 they were charging you anyway but they have to do a bit more work for it.

If everyone did this then their workload would increase and they would realise that a £45 minimum charge is counter productive.

[Flash0710]

I did a wx diversion here last month. When i called up un-announced ATC were fantastic at slotting me in with the big turboprops and helis and directed me to a parking spot. Shut the aircraft down secured the machine as the chap who had been sent out to meet me placed hi viz cones around the a/c.
The dog and i were then driven to ops and the paperwork process began.....

Firstly. And probably best shared knowledge.... Norwich do not participate in the Wx Diversion scheme... They will reduce your landing fee. Which judging by the figures here, was a bonus. Noticing that this was a hi viz hell i also made a point of checking how i would be allowed entry back to the machine in the morning as the plan was now to leave it here over night. The landing fee reciept was to be shown. (would recommend taking your passport as i did just in case of any doubt)

I then had to wait to be escorted to the crew door so i could get to the terminal.

As i made my way through the terminal i was approached by one of the hot shot staff to inform me that there should not be dogs in the terminal.... (time for a bit of fun here ) " We have just flown in" [blank] In our plane.... Heh! Off i go to get the bus......(which is nowhere near the terminal due to "development")

The next day i arose to blue clear skies so set off (without the dog) to get the kite. I purchased a bottle of wine as i would be flying to a place far away from shops and was looking forward to a relaxing evening... Jumped off the park and ride and made my way to the airport information desk. I was informed that i would be able to get to the security area after i had paid the airport development charge..... bit of a scam.. Then had my wine confiscated as i was deemed a terrorist threat to my own aircraft.


I found the entire Norwich experience total arse ache. They have a ga side there why can't they manage GA? Anyhoo i'm certainly not in any rush to go back and if you need to go to Norwich there are plenty of GA airfields surrounding it that would prefer your pound more than Norwich deserve them....

Lotsaluv

xxx

f

[Whirlygig]

Have you tried approaching some of the GA operators there to see if they could provide your handling and maybe this would alleviate the minimum invoice charge? You might also be able to keep your toothpaste and not have to provide tickets and boarding passes for your pax (and that's not a joke either!)

Cheers

Whirls

[gcolyer]

You should see what Bristol Lulsgate are doing to GA!

They are doing away with the cheapo offer to GA because the heli's did not get the same break. So to land a PA28 at Lulsgate will cost £96 (ish) by easter at the latest!!.


To top it off Lulsgate ballsed up the plan to re-develop Weston heli museum as a GA airfield because Lulsgate said they wanted GA and would support it.

Luckily I fly from Filton or Upfield Farm.

[Zulu Alpha]

Not sure whether you could buy a bit of fuel and then together with the landing fee they could come to the £45 minimum charge.
Also, if I remember correctly there is a discount if you settle up there and then. I guess it saves them sending out an invoice and having to chase for their money.
I also believe they will halve the charges if you pre book a training slot. So you could book an ILS and landing for training. Buy a bit of fuel and walk away £45 lighter.
No one round here goes there anymore as its all yellow vests. Not all their fault really as the ramp has scheduled flights and they have to have security levels appropriate for this. GA with its toothpaste and bottles of wine gets treated the same. After all, you could just leave something airside for a commercial passenger to pick up.
ZA

[niknak]

Landing fees are outwith our remit, but there are are facilities away from the terminal and if you pay on the day you won't be hit for anything like £45.
If you park on the light a/c park and go to a hange south of hangar 12 you'll find a fully licensed resturant and briefing facility, they can't take your landing fee (for reasons beyond me and not for the want of exhaustive trying on their behalf).

The airport development fee of £3 only applies to departing passengers on schedules or IT services, it's charged by every airport in the UK but it's just that NWI, Liverpool and St Mawgan have had the balls to let folk know up front and not squirrel it away in the other charges.
Besides which it's optional and less than 200 out of 650,000 passengers to date have refused to pay it.

The landing fees issue is a worthy debate, but stick to the facts and do some research before you post, NWI isn't the pariah some of you imply it is.
We rarely turn anyone away for training, have better and more accessible facilities than any other airport in Norfolk, Cambridge or Suffolk and, as a unit, we often provide services for free that other airports would charge you for.

Cheers chaps and chapesses.....

[lotman1000]

The airport development fee of £3 only applies to departing passengers on schedules or IT services, it's charged by every airport in the UK but it's just that NWI, Liverpool and St Mawgan have had the balls to let folk know up front and not squirrel it away in the other charges.

In a word..............................b*ll*x

All airports, repeat all, collect money from fees and charges, from which they pay their costs leaving a profit. The accumulated profits, plus a lot of loan finance, pays for capital developments in the future.

Separating a small part of the total charge as a compulsory "levy", especially when combined with the threat "if you don't pay you'll go on a database and cannot use the airport again" is a dishonest trick, needed mostly because the airlines refused to pay an even higher passenger movement charge at those airports and pass it on to their customers.

The levy is illegal under various laws including the Civil Aviation Act and the Data Protection Act, and if used to evade VAT and Corporation tax on the income it generates, it would be illegal for that reason too.

The levy must be declared by airlines as a mandatory charge, which in fact it is, payable as a condition of taking their flights from Norwich. Understandably they are not doing that, having fought against it in the first place, but they should, and may be liable to refund the £3 if they don't.

Every passenger should;

a) Refuse to pay, and then refuse consent under the DPA to having his/her name listed on the Airport's database. Demand to see the record in writing, and demand confirmation of removal, which under the Act the Airport must supply. The airport cannot then refuse use of the airport to that passenger, as doing so would be incontravertible evidence that the record is still there.

b) Report any threats to the CAA, and if that produces no action (likely, it's the CAA) escalate to the Dept of Transport and to Trading Standards in Norfolk.

c) If they do pay, demand to receive VAT receipts for the payment, showing the VAT collected and the company's VAT number. (Perhaps they do this anyway, but it's worth making sure).

d) If you are coerced into paying, seek a refund from the airline on the grounds that the payment was not included in the quoted price of the ticket, as the law requires.

e) If the DF shop staff claim that goods sold in the Departure lounge to domestic flight passengers are sold without VAT added, as they have been known to, ask the airport to advise whether they are really not collecting the VAT, or are making misrepresentions about what they sell and the price. Inform HMRC if the former, or a good lawyer if the latter!

Go fo it and good luck. These scams must be resisted.

PS The reason that only 200 have refused is that staff tell passengers that is is compulsory to pay if they wish to catch their flights, and that if they refuse and therefore miss their flights they will not be refunded the fares, holiday payments etc. That's what I was told before I paid; after I paid it changed to "if you had refused we would have blacklisted you, etc etc". Most people accept it as a necessary evil, which does not mean they do not think it's a rip-off.

Let me see; around £2m collected so far. That might be £272,700 or so to pay in VAT, plus interest and penalties. I do hope so, but perhaps it was paid.

[IO540]

Niknak

Landing fees are outwith our remit, but there are are facilities away from the terminal and if you pay on the day you won't be hit for anything like £45.
If you park on the light a/c park and go to a hange south of hangar 12 you'll find a fully licensed resturant and briefing facility, they can't take your landing fee

This facility has been alluded to here previously, using whispers and secret emails

Can you elaborate on where exactly one should ask for taxi instructions to?

Asking to taxi to such and such aeroclub is a standard way around large airports to get around the full handling charges, but it works only sometimes, and one often ends up parking on some muddy grass full of potholes. A couple of years ago I got close to a prop strike at Norwich when parking on the grass outside one of the flying schools, away from the main terminal. Disaster was avoided only because of my annoying habit to stop the engine, get out, and walk the route ahead checking for holes and dips.

I did this "aeroclub thing" at Southend a few times last year and the airport fire service had to pull me out of a deep muddy rut with a 4x4 and two ropes...

Norwich is a nice airport but they need to get organised for GA. They have enough security staff to handle a full Bolshevik revolution. Also, every time I've been there, they had enough empty tarmac to park the entire fixed wing RAF.