Legal to fly N-reg on CAA licence?
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Legal to fly N-reg on CAA licence?
Can anyone give me a definitive on whether it is legal to fly an "N Reg" on a UK CAA licence?.
Most give an instinctive answer- No- because they know everyone obtains an FAA licence to fly N Reg- but this is mainly because they don't have a CAA Instrument Rating and find it easier to obtain an FAA IR, and can use that in UK airspace in an N Reg. However, that does not neccesarily imply that a a CAA licnce holder cant fly N reg.
Most give an instinctive answer- No- because they know everyone obtains an FAA licence to fly N Reg- but this is mainly because they don't have a CAA Instrument Rating and find it easier to obtain an FAA IR, and can use that in UK airspace in an N Reg. However, that does not neccesarily imply that a a CAA licnce holder cant fly N reg.
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The answer is yes, under certain circumstances.
For example, if I managed a foreign airline, and desired to lease in FAA registered aircraft (and the local CAA agreed) then FAA license validations would be issued to present UK license holders, who were working for the company.
These licenses would be limited to only those FAA registered aircraft, however.
For example, if I managed a foreign airline, and desired to lease in FAA registered aircraft (and the local CAA agreed) then FAA license validations would be issued to present UK license holders, who were working for the company.
These licenses would be limited to only those FAA registered aircraft, however.
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I suspect you are right for cemmercial operations, but because the rules on operating an airline specify the aircraft criteria, not he aircrew licence. Put in a private flight context- I think that nieither the licence, nor airlaw anywhere refers to the the aircraft certification- it grants certain privaleges in cetain types of airspace..........
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14 CFR 61.3
The debate however is whether a JAA licence issued in the UK is valid for flying an 'N' reg within JAA airspace, or just the UK.
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used
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The important term is issued.
JAA licenses are issued by a single country. They are automatically rendered valid in all of the other JAA countries with full privileges.
This means that when in say Ireland with your UK issued JAA-PPL, your licence is automatically rendered valid for flying EI registered aircraft with no limitations other than what is in your licence etc.
However, if the aircraft is N registered then the FAA (for the moment) have blocked your ability to fly it in Ireland becuase they require the licence you are using to be issued by the country in which you are flying the aircraft.
The way round that is to get your licence validated by the FAA (or in FAA speak get an FAA licence issued on the basis of your licence).
Basically it is the FAA meeting it's international obligations.
How would you like to have a person from some backwater African country with rather lax licensing requirements being able to fly N registered aircraft through your (up until then) safe airspace. If they were flying their own registration you would see them coming (flight plan requirements) and stop them but in an N reg, you don't get a chance to stop them because you would assume that the FAA are happy with the standard of pilot.
Of course you and the FAA don't really care that the above country lets half trained pilots fly round causing mayhem in their own airspace because they can if they want to.
So like the FAA say the licence has to be an FAA one or issued by the country in which the aircraft is flying.
Regards,
DFC
JAA licenses are issued by a single country. They are automatically rendered valid in all of the other JAA countries with full privileges.
This means that when in say Ireland with your UK issued JAA-PPL, your licence is automatically rendered valid for flying EI registered aircraft with no limitations other than what is in your licence etc.
However, if the aircraft is N registered then the FAA (for the moment) have blocked your ability to fly it in Ireland becuase they require the licence you are using to be issued by the country in which you are flying the aircraft.
The way round that is to get your licence validated by the FAA (or in FAA speak get an FAA licence issued on the basis of your licence).
Basically it is the FAA meeting it's international obligations.
How would you like to have a person from some backwater African country with rather lax licensing requirements being able to fly N registered aircraft through your (up until then) safe airspace. If they were flying their own registration you would see them coming (flight plan requirements) and stop them but in an N reg, you don't get a chance to stop them because you would assume that the FAA are happy with the standard of pilot.
Of course you and the FAA don't really care that the above country lets half trained pilots fly round causing mayhem in their own airspace because they can if they want to.
So like the FAA say the licence has to be an FAA one or issued by the country in which the aircraft is flying.
Regards,
DFC
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My tuppence worth: i am in the exact situation i have a uk issued jaa ppl but live in ireland. I enquired about flying an N -Reg here in ireland and the legalities of it. My enquiries were made to the IAA head of licencing and this is the reply i got
You are entitled to fly a U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Ireland with a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) provided that the aircraft is being operated as a private aircraft, reference Article 5 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below:-
"Article 5, para (2) A person shall not, within the territorial limits of the State, act as a flight crew member of an aircraft registered in any other state unless -
(a) in the case of a commercial transport or aerial work aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered, or, for a JAA member state, a JAA licence;
(b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
You may not, however, fly an U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Irish airspace under IFR Rules unless you hold a U.S.FAA pilot licence with a current FAA Instrument Rating , reference Article 19 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below:-
"Article 19, para (2) A person shall not, within the State, act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot in a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in any other state under instrument flight rules unless that person holds a valid licence, with a current instrument rating endorsed thereon or included therein, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered and appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown."
You may wish to transfer your UK JAR-FCL PPL(A) to Ireland on grounds of permanent residence in Ireland, although there is no compulsion on you to do so. If you should wish to do so, please contact my Licensing Officer,who will guide you through the process.
So i can only take the official line that in ireland you can fly N reg with a jaa ppl with no restrictions(apart from the obvious and those listed above)
Hope this helps
OCK1F
You are entitled to fly a U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Ireland with a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) provided that the aircraft is being operated as a private aircraft, reference Article 5 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below:-
"Article 5, para (2) A person shall not, within the territorial limits of the State, act as a flight crew member of an aircraft registered in any other state unless -
(a) in the case of a commercial transport or aerial work aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered, or, for a JAA member state, a JAA licence;
(b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
You may not, however, fly an U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Irish airspace under IFR Rules unless you hold a U.S.FAA pilot licence with a current FAA Instrument Rating , reference Article 19 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below:-
"Article 19, para (2) A person shall not, within the State, act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot in a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in any other state under instrument flight rules unless that person holds a valid licence, with a current instrument rating endorsed thereon or included therein, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered and appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown."
You may wish to transfer your UK JAR-FCL PPL(A) to Ireland on grounds of permanent residence in Ireland, although there is no compulsion on you to do so. If you should wish to do so, please contact my Licensing Officer,who will guide you through the process.
So i can only take the official line that in ireland you can fly N reg with a jaa ppl with no restrictions(apart from the obvious and those listed above)
Hope this helps
OCK1F
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OCK1F - I hate to say this but it isn't totally under the remit of the IAA.
Your 'N' reg aircraft is subject to the oversight and certification by the FAA, not the IAA, and therefore is to be operated in accordance with any relevant FAR's. (in this case 14 CFR 61.3) Therefore no matter what the IAA say you still need the FAA to back the IAA's statement up - failure to do so could actually lead you to be uninsured in the event of an incident.
The link I posted above could go someway to achieving this - but like everything in life, get it in writing.
Your 'N' reg aircraft is subject to the oversight and certification by the FAA, not the IAA, and therefore is to be operated in accordance with any relevant FAR's. (in this case 14 CFR 61.3) Therefore no matter what the IAA say you still need the FAA to back the IAA's statement up - failure to do so could actually lead you to be uninsured in the event of an incident.
The link I posted above could go someway to achieving this - but like everything in life, get it in writing.
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Chilli Monster, surely this post - lifted from the link you posted - puts us all back to square one?
2 Donkeys said:
This is far simpler than it first appears.
There is only one office in the FAA authorised to provide the FAA's opinion on matters related to the FARs and their interpretation. The "General Aviation and Commercial Division Flight Standards Service" is not it.
When somebody shows up with a letter from the correct place (Office of the Chief Counsel - FAA), we should all sit up and listen.
So it really doesn't matter what this chap says, whether in writing or otherwise, it doesn't bind the FAA and it doesn't get you off the hook if exposed to any degree of scrutiny.
The aforementioned Office of the Chief Counsel was represented at a meeting I attended of Flying Attorneys last March in New York. Their rep was asked to comment on this apparent problem, and the answer he gave was obvious and straightforward. Part 61.3 of CFR Title 14 talks about:
Quote:
a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated
EASA is neither a country, nor an issuer. JAA doesn't issue either. JAA licences differ widely across the JAA World and are issued by specific individual member countries according to certain overarching rules. That really is all there is to it. The issuer of a JAA licence is not some mythical JAA-land, it is no more and no less than the Issuing Country. Not really very surprising when you think about it.
Peter, if you can point to any case law where the FAA was bound on matters of legislation by any employee outside the OoCC, I'd love to see it. The reason that we can be quite safe on that bet is also straightforward. The FAA is not the "owner" of Title 14. The FAA is merely charged with administrating and enforcing it. This gives the OoCC something of an advantage when opining on the interpretation of a specific piece of legislation. What it does not do is make him infallible. A good defence attorney is quite capable of pushing against the FAA's interpretation of a particular piece of legislation, and sometimes, they win. One thing is for certain though, if the FAA act against you, it will be on the basis of the OoCC's interpretation of the rules, and not that of some random bloke in a field office with a gift for rather ill-considered letters. You can always cite his viewpoint in your defence, but don't expect any applause in court.
This is far simpler than it first appears.
There is only one office in the FAA authorised to provide the FAA's opinion on matters related to the FARs and their interpretation. The "General Aviation and Commercial Division Flight Standards Service" is not it.
When somebody shows up with a letter from the correct place (Office of the Chief Counsel - FAA), we should all sit up and listen.
So it really doesn't matter what this chap says, whether in writing or otherwise, it doesn't bind the FAA and it doesn't get you off the hook if exposed to any degree of scrutiny.
The aforementioned Office of the Chief Counsel was represented at a meeting I attended of Flying Attorneys last March in New York. Their rep was asked to comment on this apparent problem, and the answer he gave was obvious and straightforward. Part 61.3 of CFR Title 14 talks about:
Quote:
a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated
EASA is neither a country, nor an issuer. JAA doesn't issue either. JAA licences differ widely across the JAA World and are issued by specific individual member countries according to certain overarching rules. That really is all there is to it. The issuer of a JAA licence is not some mythical JAA-land, it is no more and no less than the Issuing Country. Not really very surprising when you think about it.
Peter, if you can point to any case law where the FAA was bound on matters of legislation by any employee outside the OoCC, I'd love to see it. The reason that we can be quite safe on that bet is also straightforward. The FAA is not the "owner" of Title 14. The FAA is merely charged with administrating and enforcing it. This gives the OoCC something of an advantage when opining on the interpretation of a specific piece of legislation. What it does not do is make him infallible. A good defence attorney is quite capable of pushing against the FAA's interpretation of a particular piece of legislation, and sometimes, they win. One thing is for certain though, if the FAA act against you, it will be on the basis of the OoCC's interpretation of the rules, and not that of some random bloke in a field office with a gift for rather ill-considered letters. You can always cite his viewpoint in your defence, but don't expect any applause in court.
I hate to say this but it isn't totally under the remit of the IAA.
Your 'N' reg aircraft is subject to the oversight and certification by the FAA, not the IAA...
Your 'N' reg aircraft is subject to the oversight and certification by the FAA, not the IAA...
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Chilli monster- good point and it was something that was occupying my meagre brain cell capacity. Its an interesting question- the IAA say that i can fly an NREG in ireland under the privileges of my uk jaa issued ppl and its all legal and dandy but the US regs state that an nreg can only be flown in the country that issues the foreign licence which would exclude me flying nreg here in ireland unless the JAA licence is considered europe wide for validity reasons....which it is in europe but apparently not in the US(or is it?)
Without wanting to sound morbid or some such, there must have been a hull loss or fatal accident involving an Nreg somewhere in europe involving a Jaa ppl licence and when the Nreg was being operated outside the country of licence issue since the Jaa ppl licences were introduced??-if so i wonder what the outcome was with regards to the view
1) the hull insurer took,
2)the life insurer,
3)the AAIU/AAIB branch of both the country in which the accident happened and the country of licence of issue (as both would be involved),
4) the FAA (as country of a/c reg)
This is a common enough topic and the answers(unfortunately vary widely) are so diverse that i wish the head of the FAA (marion blakely)or her replacement would just write an open letter clarifying the whole FAA/Jaa thing
Obviously with financial and family commitments i am reluctant to fly here in an Nreg despite the clarification i got from the IAA that its ok because... if god forbids the worst happened i dont want my dependents to find themselves arguing the toss between IAA/JAA rules and FAA rules as to whether i was operating outside my licence and the knock on effect it has with life insurance and so forth.
Just one final thought..usually the rules of the air and resultant legal obligations are those of the country that is being flown over i.e. an NREG and or an FAA pilot in ireland would be subject to the rules of the air here e.g an Faa pilot here cannot operate Vfr at night(outside a control zone) despite having the privilege on his/her FAA licence.
Would that give precedence over the country of registration????
I await learned and informative responses from ye with much experience and wisdom....seriously
OCK1F
Without wanting to sound morbid or some such, there must have been a hull loss or fatal accident involving an Nreg somewhere in europe involving a Jaa ppl licence and when the Nreg was being operated outside the country of licence issue since the Jaa ppl licences were introduced??-if so i wonder what the outcome was with regards to the view
1) the hull insurer took,
2)the life insurer,
3)the AAIU/AAIB branch of both the country in which the accident happened and the country of licence of issue (as both would be involved),
4) the FAA (as country of a/c reg)
This is a common enough topic and the answers(unfortunately vary widely) are so diverse that i wish the head of the FAA (marion blakely)or her replacement would just write an open letter clarifying the whole FAA/Jaa thing
Obviously with financial and family commitments i am reluctant to fly here in an Nreg despite the clarification i got from the IAA that its ok because... if god forbids the worst happened i dont want my dependents to find themselves arguing the toss between IAA/JAA rules and FAA rules as to whether i was operating outside my licence and the knock on effect it has with life insurance and so forth.
Just one final thought..usually the rules of the air and resultant legal obligations are those of the country that is being flown over i.e. an NREG and or an FAA pilot in ireland would be subject to the rules of the air here e.g an Faa pilot here cannot operate Vfr at night(outside a control zone) despite having the privilege on his/her FAA licence.
Would that give precedence over the country of registration????
I await learned and informative responses from ye with much experience and wisdom....seriously
OCK1F
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I posted about this not so long ago and got 1 reply-for what it's worth
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=296378
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=296378
Another Jaa/Faa licence question!
Hi All,
its a quick question this time i hope!
Am i correct in thinking that in order to fly an N-REG aircraft legally with a foreign licence(non faa) that this can only be done in the country of issue of the foreign licence?
i.e. a uk issued JAA ppl licence used to fly an N-REG means that the N-REG can only be flown within the airspace of the uk?
if that is the case ???? i take it that each country that issues JAA ppls means that N-REG can only be flown within the country that issues the jaa ppl?
Does it then follow than cross border touring is not legal?
Thanks in Advance
Ock1f
15th October 2007, 20:53 #Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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You are absolutely correct!
You can fly an 'N' reg aircraft within the UK on your UK licence.
You can easily get an FAA PPL issued on the basis of your UK PPL just by filling in some paperwork. Details of how to do this are covered extensively elsewhere on this forum.
Once you have your FAA PPL, you can fly wherever you want to in your 'N' registered aeroplane 
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I do not agree that the only communication from the FAA that carries legal weight must come from the office of the FAA Chief Counsel.
If that was the simple position as is claimed, a vast amount of stuff that has emanated from the FAA over many years would be utterly worthless. Equally a huge amount of stuff concerning certification of various installations would be void and that is just a tip of the iceberg.
Obviously, if you are talking to the FAA Chief Counsel and you ask him whether his opinion is worth as much, more, or less, than the opinion of one of his countless subordinates, what answer do you think he will give?? Of course he will claim he is the only authority!
Very often, pilots are advised to contact an FAA FSDO (district office) for answers like this, and those sure as hell don't come from the Chief Counsel.
I am not a lawyer, but U.S. law is likely to be at least somewhat similar to UK law in the area of an apparently authorised official of a government body stating something, and that definitely carries weight here in the UK, making a prosecution damn difficult and usually impossible. This is not only a feature of contract law but is basic fair play, without which any statement emanating from an apparently authorised person in a public or corporate body would be worthless.
Any lawyer doing CAA prosecutions will tell you about a certain case where somebody in the CAA wrote a letter which the CAA never knew had been written, and which resulted in a failed CAA prosecution.
However, in this case, I would say that anything the Irish CAA says would be worthless if it contradicts FAR 61.3. This is because, under ICAO, the privileges (if any) which a foreign license gives in an N-reg is entirely up to the FAA and Ireland has no business in it.
The Irish could ban its own citizens exercising the privileges of a non-Irish license (I wish I had the ICAO reference for this) in Irish airspace, in any aircraft reg, but that's not the same thing at all.
So, I agree that FAR 61.3 does clearly mean that a JAA license is void for an N-reg except in the airspace of license issue.
However, I am also sure that a written statement from an FAA official that a JAA license meets 61.3 for all JAA airspace would be a good enough legal defence.
I happen to know, secondhand, of a corporate jet operation which has obtained legal opinion on this (flying N-reg around Europe under a JAA ATPL) and the answer was affirmative. This suprised me but there we are.
Finally, the FARs were written without considering issues like these, in a far away foreign airspace. What do people think the FAA would have intended in such a case? Surely, given that all JAA members are happy to validate each others' licenses, it is reasonable for the FAA to accept that.
This is one of a number of grey areas in aviation.
Another one is whether one can fly a G-reg or an N-reg on an FAA PPL in UK airspace at night, which is "IFR" but the FARs require an IR for all IFR flight Or, for the UK G-reg only, whether a website based membership meets the advertising rules for a "flying club" for PPL cost sharing
The overwhelming evidence is that both the FAA and the CAA like to keep grey areas grey, in all cases where this suits them, and they clarify them only in cases where it also suits them. This is what any intelligent regulator would do because it gives him the maximum options for prosecuting "bad egg" pilots who continually push the boundaries (and there are plenty of those) while avoiding the creation of a legislative framework so complicated it would be a mockery to enforce.
The FAA used to have an FAQ on their website, written by the famous and prolific FAA rule writer John Lynch, which clarified many things. For example, does the 250nm x/c flight for the CPL need to have all 3 landings on the same day? NO, according to John Lynch. This FAQ was pulled c. 2004 (anybody want a copy, EMAIL me) and without any doubt because they wanted maximum flexibility.
If that was the simple position as is claimed, a vast amount of stuff that has emanated from the FAA over many years would be utterly worthless. Equally a huge amount of stuff concerning certification of various installations would be void and that is just a tip of the iceberg.
Obviously, if you are talking to the FAA Chief Counsel and you ask him whether his opinion is worth as much, more, or less, than the opinion of one of his countless subordinates, what answer do you think he will give?? Of course he will claim he is the only authority!
Very often, pilots are advised to contact an FAA FSDO (district office) for answers like this, and those sure as hell don't come from the Chief Counsel.
I am not a lawyer, but U.S. law is likely to be at least somewhat similar to UK law in the area of an apparently authorised official of a government body stating something, and that definitely carries weight here in the UK, making a prosecution damn difficult and usually impossible. This is not only a feature of contract law but is basic fair play, without which any statement emanating from an apparently authorised person in a public or corporate body would be worthless.
Any lawyer doing CAA prosecutions will tell you about a certain case where somebody in the CAA wrote a letter which the CAA never knew had been written, and which resulted in a failed CAA prosecution.
However, in this case, I would say that anything the Irish CAA says would be worthless if it contradicts FAR 61.3. This is because, under ICAO, the privileges (if any) which a foreign license gives in an N-reg is entirely up to the FAA and Ireland has no business in it.
The Irish could ban its own citizens exercising the privileges of a non-Irish license (I wish I had the ICAO reference for this) in Irish airspace, in any aircraft reg, but that's not the same thing at all.
So, I agree that FAR 61.3 does clearly mean that a JAA license is void for an N-reg except in the airspace of license issue.
However, I am also sure that a written statement from an FAA official that a JAA license meets 61.3 for all JAA airspace would be a good enough legal defence.
I happen to know, secondhand, of a corporate jet operation which has obtained legal opinion on this (flying N-reg around Europe under a JAA ATPL) and the answer was affirmative. This suprised me but there we are.
Finally, the FARs were written without considering issues like these, in a far away foreign airspace. What do people think the FAA would have intended in such a case? Surely, given that all JAA members are happy to validate each others' licenses, it is reasonable for the FAA to accept that.
This is one of a number of grey areas in aviation.
Another one is whether one can fly a G-reg or an N-reg on an FAA PPL in UK airspace at night, which is "IFR" but the FARs require an IR for all IFR flight
Or, for the UK G-reg only, whether a website based membership meets the advertising rules for a "flying club" for PPL cost sharing The overwhelming evidence is that both the FAA and the CAA like to keep grey areas grey, in all cases where this suits them, and they clarify them only in cases where it also suits them. This is what any intelligent regulator would do because it gives him the maximum options for prosecuting "bad egg" pilots who continually push the boundaries (and there are plenty of those) while avoiding the creation of a legislative framework so complicated it would be a mockery to enforce.
The FAA used to have an FAQ on their website, written by the famous and prolific FAA rule writer John Lynch, which clarified many things. For example, does the 250nm x/c flight for the CPL need to have all 3 landings on the same day? NO, according to John Lynch. This FAQ was pulled c. 2004 (anybody want a copy, EMAIL me) and without any doubt because they wanted maximum flexibility.
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Originally Posted by flybmi
Chilli Monster, surely this post - lifted from the link you posted - puts us all back to square one?
The proof of the pudding lies if you ever want to argue the matter in court - anybody out there want to do it feel free, but it isn't going to be me. The words "Country" and "Issue" aren't open to interpretation in my book
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My poor head
!!!!
From bookworm:The jurisdiction issue is at the heart of this debate. If the FAA has jurisdiction over the flight crew composition of an aircraft with an N on the side in Irish airspace, why would the Irish legislature (and the UK has similar wording) bother with that paragraph (b)? Why not simply say "in the case of any aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered"?
So IO540 (just asking by the way ok!) why do the irish and uk caa word their relevant rules to suggest that it is legal to fly Nregs on jaa licences. Indeed Iaa make specific reference to it ? b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
Surely having this in writing is some protection?
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From IO540:However, in this case, I would say that anything the Irish CAA says would be worthless if it contradicts FAR 61.3. This is because, under ICAO, the privileges (if any) which a foreign license gives in an N-reg is entirely up to the FAA and Ireland has no business in it.
Now as is obvious from the above what the IAA states in writing does contradict the FAR which places an emphasis (or at least i do anyway) on the words country of issue . So who is right? The yanks whose register the aircraft is on and the oversight obligations that brings (maintenance schedules,licencing,AD's etc) or IAA/JAA whose licence you fly under and whose rules of the air that you operate with?
Or to put it another way 'usually the rules of the air and resultant legal obligations are those of the country that is being flown over'
--------------------------------------------------------------------
We all know that a JAA licence once awarded is valid in all the JAA contracting states. I can swap my uk issued JAA ppl in the morning for an Irish issued JAA ppl as all training,medical and currency requirements are similiar and accepted JAA wide. So if the FAA accept a JAA licence as being valid in its country of issue in order to fly an NREG in that country and all licencing,training medical and currency are the same surely it follows that i can fly an NREG within any JAA state. I can fly G reg in holland an F reg in germany and even an EI reg in ireland with my UK issued JAA ppl licence and fly all of them over borders and fir boundaries within JAA contrating countries as my licence is accepted. And this is what i have been doing... quite legally.
From IO540:So, I agree that FAR 61.3 does clearly mean that a JAA license is void for an N-reg except in the airspace of license issue
For arguments sake( its pprune after all!) lets say i hop into an Nreg in the uk with my uk issued jaa ppl. I can fly around the uk and northern ireland quite happily and legally as i am flying in the country of issue but if i stray over the border into southern ireland i am now operating illegally? Despite the two countries having and issueing the exact same licence and having the same standards! Surely this is not 'fair play' and against natural justice(if the need ever arose) Even though JAA as a notional country of issue doesnt exist the licence is valid in all JAA contracting countries which are very real hence probably the confidence of the head of Licenceing in the IAA to give me in writing 'You are entitled to fly a U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Ireland with a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) provided that the aircraft is being operated as a private aircraft, reference Article 5 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
-14 CFR 61.3
Quote:
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used
So do you take the words as chili monster does and focus on "The words "Country" and "Issue" aren't open to interpretation in my book " a valid viewpoint... but as any JAA country can issue and interchange any JAA licence with any other JAA country and each JAA licence is acccepted by all other JAA countries as a valid and current licence surely it would be acceptable to the yanks! and would satify their rule that "current pilot licence issued by the country(and by extension all other JAA countries ) in which the aircraft is operated may be used"
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This for me boils down to insurance because if god forbid the worst ever happens i dont want my dependents to find themselves arguing the toss between IAA/JAA rules and FAA rules as to whether i was operating outside my licence and the knock on effect it has with life insurance and so forth and who has jurisdiction-FAA/airplane or JAA/licence and the so far horrible mix of both
And speaking of insurance (oh oh) there must be lots of pilots and ppruners who have gotten insurance on Nreg aircraft with a JAA only licence so lets hear from you..
I can only imagine that this has been sorted out to the satisfaction of the insurance companies. If a pilot rings up an insurance company and says '" i wanna insure my nice new NREG airplane,and yes i have a uk issued JAA ppl and yes i will be crossing border/fir boundaries while touring and yes i have a valid JAA class 2 medical how much will that cost?" i can only assume that if the insurance company agrees to cover the pilot and NREG aircraft that they are happy its all legally above board otherwise they could be left in a very sticky situation too.
I await your wise and coherent (compared to mine
) replies
OCK1F
!!!!From bookworm:The jurisdiction issue is at the heart of this debate. If the FAA has jurisdiction over the flight crew composition of an aircraft with an N on the side in Irish airspace, why would the Irish legislature (and the UK has similar wording) bother with that paragraph (b)? Why not simply say "in the case of any aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered"?
So IO540 (just asking by the way ok!) why do the irish and uk caa word their relevant rules to suggest that it is legal to fly Nregs on jaa licences. Indeed Iaa make specific reference to it ? b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
Surely having this in writing is some protection?
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From IO540:However, in this case, I would say that anything the Irish CAA says would be worthless if it contradicts FAR 61.3. This is because, under ICAO, the privileges (if any) which a foreign license gives in an N-reg is entirely up to the FAA and Ireland has no business in it.
Now as is obvious from the above what the IAA states in writing does contradict the FAR which places an emphasis (or at least i do anyway) on the words country of issue . So who is right? The yanks whose register the aircraft is on and the oversight obligations that brings (maintenance schedules,licencing,AD's etc) or IAA/JAA whose licence you fly under and whose rules of the air that you operate with?
Or to put it another way 'usually the rules of the air and resultant legal obligations are those of the country that is being flown over'
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We all know that a JAA licence once awarded is valid in all the JAA contracting states. I can swap my uk issued JAA ppl in the morning for an Irish issued JAA ppl as all training,medical and currency requirements are similiar and accepted JAA wide. So if the FAA accept a JAA licence as being valid in its country of issue in order to fly an NREG in that country and all licencing,training medical and currency are the same surely it follows that i can fly an NREG within any JAA state. I can fly G reg in holland an F reg in germany and even an EI reg in ireland with my UK issued JAA ppl licence and fly all of them over borders and fir boundaries within JAA contrating countries as my licence is accepted. And this is what i have been doing... quite legally.
From IO540:So, I agree that FAR 61.3 does clearly mean that a JAA license is void for an N-reg except in the airspace of license issue
For arguments sake( its pprune after all!) lets say i hop into an Nreg in the uk with my uk issued jaa ppl. I can fly around the uk and northern ireland quite happily and legally as i am flying in the country of issue but if i stray over the border into southern ireland i am now operating illegally? Despite the two countries having and issueing the exact same licence and having the same standards! Surely this is not 'fair play' and against natural justice(if the need ever arose) Even though JAA as a notional country of issue doesnt exist the licence is valid in all JAA contracting countries which are very real hence probably the confidence of the head of Licenceing in the IAA to give me in writing 'You are entitled to fly a U.S. N-Registration aircraft in Ireland with a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) provided that the aircraft is being operated as a private aircraft, reference Article 5 para (2) of the IAA (Personnel licensing) Order, 2000 (SI No. 333 of 2000), extract below b)in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence."
-14 CFR 61.3
Quote:
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used
So do you take the words as chili monster does and focus on "The words "Country" and "Issue" aren't open to interpretation in my book " a valid viewpoint... but as any JAA country can issue and interchange any JAA licence with any other JAA country and each JAA licence is acccepted by all other JAA countries as a valid and current licence surely it would be acceptable to the yanks! and would satify their rule that "current pilot licence issued by the country(and by extension all other JAA countries ) in which the aircraft is operated may be used"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This for me boils down to insurance because if god forbid the worst ever happens i dont want my dependents to find themselves arguing the toss between IAA/JAA rules and FAA rules as to whether i was operating outside my licence and the knock on effect it has with life insurance and so forth and who has jurisdiction-FAA/airplane or JAA/licence and the so far horrible mix of both
And speaking of insurance (oh oh) there must be lots of pilots and ppruners who have gotten insurance on Nreg aircraft with a JAA only licence so lets hear from you..
I can only imagine that this has been sorted out to the satisfaction of the insurance companies. If a pilot rings up an insurance company and says '" i wanna insure my nice new NREG airplane,and yes i have a uk issued JAA ppl and yes i will be crossing border/fir boundaries while touring and yes i have a valid JAA class 2 medical how much will that cost?" i can only assume that if the insurance company agrees to cover the pilot and NREG aircraft that they are happy its all legally above board otherwise they could be left in a very sticky situation too.
I await your wise and coherent (compared to mine
) repliesOCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 4th Nov 2007 at 22:26.
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Insurance. I have an 'N' reg, I have FAA licences. I have two other shareholders who don't (as yet) have FAA licences, either standalone or issued iaw 61.75. Until that time neither of them flies outside the UK unless I'm in the aircraft.
The insurance policy includes the wording "aircraft is to be operated legally". Operating without trying to twist the limitation in 61.3 makes sure that remains so.
The insurance policy includes the wording "aircraft is to be operated legally". Operating without trying to twist the limitation in 61.3 makes sure that remains so.
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Fair point Chilli and no doubt it helps you sleep better at night knowing that you have covered all the legal angles and are quite cautious with regards to the insurance on your policy and your N reg aircraft.
If it was my plane i would err on the cautious side too! However the phrase that the "aircraft is to be operated legally" usually refers to the usual stuff like weight and balance and the way its flown etc . Now having a valid licence is definitely needed to operate legally but it again brings us back to the question "does a JAA ppl licence equal a valid licence when operating an NREG outside the country of issue and yet within another JAA country.??? Back to square one?
OCK1F
If it was my plane i would err on the cautious side too! However the phrase that the "aircraft is to be operated legally" usually refers to the usual stuff like weight and balance and the way its flown etc . Now having a valid licence is definitely needed to operate legally but it again brings us back to the question "does a JAA ppl licence equal a valid licence when operating an NREG outside the country of issue and yet within another JAA country.??? Back to square one?
OCK1F
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See post #15 - with apologies to Clint Eastwood "Is Europe an issuing state, or isn't it - In short, do you feel lucky?".
How prepared are you to argue the point if the sh1t hits the fan?
How prepared are you to argue the point if the sh1t hits the fan?
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Some interesting links and i see chilli you posted on the second link below and at the time you were of the view that info contained on the thread changed things for your group members but i take it that you decided to err on the cautious side since ?
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/...imcr-nreg.html
You gotta try
And yes...usually when someone asks am i feeling lucky my response is "sure am" but if they call me punk my response is usually a little different
also http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=37440
Quit informative but with all things on the internet a couple of grain of salt should be addded ..maybe.
Does any one have contact details for the relevant Dept in the FAA so i can ask, and see what their view is on this???
OCK1f
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/...imcr-nreg.html
You gotta try
And yes...usually when someone asks am i feeling lucky my response is "sure am" but if they call me punk my response is usually a little different
also http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=37440
Quit informative but with all things on the internet a couple of grain of salt should be addded ..maybe.
Does any one have contact details for the relevant Dept in the FAA so i can ask, and see what their view is on this???
OCK1f