Legal to fly N-reg on CAA licence?

[IO540]

ock1f - I think what you wrote is what I wrote, just expressing it differently.

Surely having this in writing is some protection?

I agree.

What really matters is insurance. You could try writing to your insurer for a ruling. I have done this sort of thing and they always responded with "you have to comply with the legislation" but they just might give a ruling, in which case (assuming full disclosure of all relevant facts) you are OK.

[bookworm]

Does any one have contact details for the relevant Dept in the FAA so i can ask, and see what their view is on this???

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...s_offices/agc/

[bookworm]

This is because, under ICAO, the privileges (if any) which a foreign license gives in an N-reg is entirely up to the FAA and Ireland has no business in it.

Reference please?

I can find two (potentially conflicting) articles of relevance in the Chicago Convention:

Article 1
Sovereignty

The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory.

Article 17
Nationality of aircraft

Aircraft have the nationality of the State in which they are registered.

[IO540]

I agree bookworm as regards restrictions. A state can restrict aircraft flying in its airspace as it wishes.

But the above thread suggests something different. It suggests that Ireland is able to add privileges for an N-reg which are in conflict with what the FAA permits.

Maybe this is possible, but that would place the IAA and the FAA in direct conflict, wouldn't it?

(1) Let's say the FAA prohibited any pilot (of an N-reg) from wearing pink underpants.

(2) Let's say the IAA required the wearing of pink underpants in an N-reg.

Which one wins? IMHO that is a grey area, but it happens very rarely if ever. Normally, one is dealing with multiple sets of restrictions, which is easy: the strictest combination carries the day.

[bookworm]

I agree bookworm as regards restrictions. A state can restrict aircraft flying in its airspace as it wishes.

Well, no it can't because of the Chicago Convention. If the state is a signatory, it must permit foreign aircraft in accordance with the Convention. But the Convention was intended to facilitate international air navigation, not restrict states from permitting whatever they please within their sovereign territory.

My own interpretation of the intention of 61(3) is that the FAA is very happy for N-reg aircraft to be flown in foreign states provided the regulations of the foreign state with respect to licensing are adhered to. The FARs have no concept of rendering a foreign licence valid, and so the language comes out technically incompatible with a foreign state that renders another's licence valid rather than issuing its own.

If I were in ock1f's position I would not be afraid of FAA enforcement action, but I would be nervous about the insurance situation. Thus I would want either an opinion from the OCC or a clear statement from my insurance company.

[bookworm]

Let's say the IAA required the wearing of pink underpants in an N-reg.

Surely "emerald green"?

[Chilli Monster]

Of course, rather than fretting over the problem you can always do the simple (and relatively cheap option) - Do the verification paperwork, shoot across to New York and get an FAA certificate based on your JAA licence (14 CFR 61.75)

Worldwide privileges - no problems, no worries.

[bookworm]

Wouldn't you have to do a BFR though, CM? Which is as much a PITA as your 'hour with an instructor' to retain your CAA SEP rating.

[Chilli Monster]

Again - no great hassle. There's plenty of FAA instructors about. Do it while you're over there doing the paperwork. I managed a twin BFR recently having arrived at JFK Monday evening and was leaving Wednesday evening.

Being in the "other" camp as far as my CAA licence is concerned I don't actually find it a PITA, being based somewhere with an examiner readily available 5 days a week and instructors 7 days a week. It's just another hoop to jump through - like annual competency checks at work and keeping my THREE medical certificates valid.

[DFC]

I would not place much trust in the following statement that apears in the debate to highlighted;

Ref. § 61.3(a)(1); Yes, it is my understanding that EASU recognizes the JAA pilot license for use in all the member states that are in the European Union. A JAA pilot license would be the appropriate pilot license for flying a U.S. registered aircraft within the member states that are in the European Union and would be in compliance with § 61.3(a)(1).

1. From the start they make it clear that it is their opinion based on their understanding which unfortunately is flawed.

2. EASU?

3. The EU and the JAA member states are not the same thing. There are JAA member States that are not in the EU and there are JAA Member States that are not Full Member States etc etc etc

I would not expect an employee of the FAA who is not involved in dealings with the JAA to understand what the EU / EASA / JAA etc are.

However, I bet an insurance company would easily say that you being a local must have known that there are flaws in the above statement that clearly shows that this individual lacks knowledge of the system in Europe.

----------

The IAA issue has sidetracked the question somewhat.

The question posed to the IAA was "Can I fly an N registered aircraft in Ireland with a UK issued PPL?". They said Yes as far as the IAA is concerned.

They did not say anything about the FAA. They simply answered the question as put. If the FAA says NO then they have the final answer as it is their aircraft but if the FAA say Yes then Ireland has no objection.

If you are flying an N reg aircraft then you are legally required to comply with the requirements of the state of registration i.e. you need to know your FARs. It is not simply a case of getting a nice JAA PPL and hopping into a N reg that is available locally.

So what has that gained - permission to fly in the UK and in Ireland. That is it. You can feel free to write to every other country and ask them as well................but isn't it the case that you can ask for permission to fly your home built unregistered just about flying and not having a pilot licence type of flying in say France and if they say yes then yes you can.

You could ask to use the IMC rating in Ireland if you want and they might let you (or they may not).

However, I think the debate was started with the idea of finding out where you can fly an N reg without having to ask every time before crossing a border.

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

Hi All,

From bookworm:If I were in ock1f's position I would not be afraid of FAA enforcement action, but I would be nervous about the insurance situation. Thus I would want either an opinion from the OCC or a clear statement from my insurance company.

Would it follow that if the FAA had no problem with the whole JAA licence thing then it wouldn't really matter about the insurance company as you would be in compliance or at least not breaking any rules either FAA or JAA?
By the way bookworm forgive me for asking... whats OCC refer to?

Any way i have spent the afternoon talking to various FAA depts and sections and people (thanks skype!) and this is a brief summary of my conversations.

First rang the Chief Counsel office and got put thru to a lawyers office who wasnt there anyway left a message and went poking around the rest of the FAA website.

My next call was to the Airmen (Oklahoma) Certification Branch. What they basically said was that they (FAA) dont really care what licence you use to fly an NREG as long as its a valid licence in that country. He stated that its the country being flown over and its regs and requiremnts that take precidence. The only time the FAA would insist on FAA licence is when actaully flying in the US of A. However he did caution to check with each JAA country on their exact requirements for flying an NREG in each country with a JAA licence. So on the face of that conversation and the reply i got from the IAA it would appear that i could quite happilly fly here-no further discussion required Happy days BUT THEN he said to conatct the New York Interanational Field Office as they are the ones who deal with things foreign and european.So i thanked him and rang New York expecting to hear the same thing......

I spoke to a very helpfull Inspector who dashed my hopes and said that country of issue is country of issue full stop. They did admit that this is a regular enquiry and that the FAA FAR regs dont take account of the fact that JAA countries have same standards throughout for licencing. Thrown into this was my converstion with the airmen branch and also the IAA correspondence i had with me. It was promised to be looked at..to see if they have anything coming up that would change this and to see if they could issue some guidance on this so i can only watch my email account with fingers crossed!!

For now
OCK1F

[skybeacon]

Currency for FAA License issued on back of a JAA

Quote: "You can easily get an FAA PPL issued on the basis of your UK PPL just by filling in some paperwork. Details of how to do this are covered extensively elsewhere on this forum. Once you have your FAA PPL, you can fly wherever you want to in your 'N' registered aeroplane"

It seems that the safest/easiest answer to N Reg operation in Europe is on the basis of an FAA licence.

I understand that an FAA licence issued on the back of a CAA/JAA licence is valid and current on the basis of the CAA license being current and valid- i.e. there is no requirement for a BFR or a FAA medical.

However, I hold both CAA/JAA & FAA licences- independantly (i.e. not issued on the back of one another)- so my FAA license is only current fowllowing a BFR and medical with an FAA authorised doctor.

I am tempted to ask for an FAA license to be issued on the back of my JAA/CAA one- does anyone know if this can be done while holidng a (proper) FAA license?

[mm_flynn]

A key question is who will care and in what circumstances. I can think of the following

1 - Your insurer in the event of an accident.

2 - The guy who ramp checks you.

3 - The State whose airspace you are flying in

4 - The owner of the aircraft you are flying

5 - The FAA

This is in order of PITA potential. I doubt the FAA cares, unless the State you are flying in complains - and then if you are not flying on a valid licence issued by the State (not multinational agency or Eurocracy) the FAA will throw the book at you.

If the State has said they are OK (i.e. the IAA) then they are not likely to pursue any issue.

Pretty high on the PITA list has got to be being fined at 17:59 Friday evening in some remote airfield in Europe by some random official. I have read stories of people flying IFR approaches in France on just an IMC (i.e. flying without a valid licence/rating) being hit with massive fines, but have no proof this has ever happened.

#1 has got to be the biggest worry, however, the cases I have seen where the insurer fails to pay have had significant extenuating circumstances. Does anyone have any example of a case where a technical issue (not related to the cause of the accident) was successfully used by the insurer to avoid paying out?

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by skybeacon

Quote:[I] I understand that an FAA licence issued on the back of a CAA/JAA licence is valid and current on the basis of the CAA license being current and valid- i.e. there is no requirement for a BFR or a FAA medical.

I believe it is more the other way around. You MUST have a BFR for your FAA piggyback licence to be valid. I believe you must also have an FAA medical, although have read some comments which suggest a CAA/JAA medical may be sufficient.

However, your CAA licence does not need to be valid in the sense of having a current CofE or CofT, but must not have been revoked.

[bookworm]

By the way bookworm forgive me for asking... whats OCC refer to?

Office of the Chief Counsel. (I would suggest you write, BTW.)

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by mmflynn

I believe you must also have an FAA medical

You believe wrong - no FAA medical is required if you have a valid non-US medical along with your non-US licence (14 CFR 61.75 (b)(4))

[IO540]

no FAA medical is required if you have a valid non-US medical along with your non-US licence (14 CFR 61.75 (b)(4))

There is another grey area there if you have an FAA IR too, IIRC.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

You believe wrong - no FAA medical is required if you have a valid non-US medical along with your non-US licence (14 CFR 61.75 (b)(4))

I am glad I qualified my belief . Reading 61.75 (b)(4) and 61.3 (c)(2) vii together seems to say that either an FAA medical or a medical issued by the country which also issued the licence which provided the basis for the piggyback FAA licence is required. (That is 'Foreign' licence and medical must be issued by the same country)

[ock1f]

I am aware of a case where a pilot rumpled his rather large and expensive airplane and as far as i know didnt get an insurance payout....the reason..he had a valid JAA ppl and JAA class 2 medical an FAA ppl and FAA IR but no FAA medical so no payout...the said pilot was conducting an IFR flight at the time

If a piggyback FAA licence requires a medical issued by the same country as that of the licence then im back to square one with that too because my JAA class 2 is issued here by the IAA yet my JAA licence is issued by the UKIt makes a bit of a mockery of the whole JAA idea of a common licence with common standards and requirements



OCK1F

[ock1f]

Fued if i know at this stage!