Confusion over logging time...Again.
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Fly Conventional Gear
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From: Winchester
Confusion over logging time...Again.
I've always found logging hours quite simple here in the UK. Any dual time with an instructor is logged P u/t, unless like whirly say's, he/she allows you to log P1 (in effect they were a passenger). Someone has to log P1 so this is ok in my book. I occassionally fly with an instructor friend. If it's an instructional flight then it's P u/t, but if we're just flying together then we decide who's P1 (even an instructor can be a passenger). Flights with an examiner for a test which is passed are be logged as P1/S and any solo flight, or flights in command are P1. Only one person can log P1, so your role during flights with fellow PPL's have to be agreed between yourselves. P2 and other logging is usually for commercial crew unless the aircraft is required to have two pilots and you are actually P2 (not many that PPL's can fly spring to mind but I know there are a few).
My question is although I've been logging time the UK way (as quoted at the top) should I be changing my ways and doing things the JAR-OPS way? (Personally I think the UK way is a more accurate representation of the truth and I prefer it)
I'm a JAA PPL holder in the UK and do most of my flying and training in the UK.
Guest
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JAR-OPS is for commercial operations so don't get hung up on that. So long as you are logging the details as required by the ANO then it doesn't matter if you use a Banana skin!
If you are flying with an instructor for training for a license, rating or differences (i.e. a subject that the FI is rated to teach) then you will be logging P.U/T. You will only be logging P1.S for full skills test passes. For solo flights you will be logging P1.
Your best bet is to review the introduction section on recording time in Section A, Appendix B of LASORS. It is all explained there: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
If you are flying with an instructor for training for a license, rating or differences (i.e. a subject that the FI is rated to teach) then you will be logging P.U/T. You will only be logging P1.S for full skills test passes. For solo flights you will be logging P1.
Your best bet is to review the introduction section on recording time in Section A, Appendix B of LASORS. It is all explained there: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
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From: Amsterdam
then it doesn't matter if you use a Banana skin!
Also, the CAA advises you to make copies of the most recent pages before you mail them your logbook. After all, mail does get lost from time to time. Imagine the face of the guy at the local copy shop when you feed five years worth of banana peel through the copiers.
(You just made my day. Thanks.)
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From: Belfast
hmmm... interesting... banana skins... hmm... 
anyway, I had a wee read through it myself. And it made me think... not always wise. Now I currently fly an aircraft which the club charges by tacho time. As I read lasors, I can log the time from I start moving until the time the aircraft stops as my flight time.
If I understand it right, then if this is greater than the tacho time, its still legal for me to log it. Is that a fair assessment?
anyway, I had a wee read through it myself. And it made me think... not always wise. Now I currently fly an aircraft which the club charges by tacho time. As I read lasors, I can log the time from I start moving until the time the aircraft stops as my flight time.
If I understand it right, then if this is greater than the tacho time, its still legal for me to log it. Is that a fair assessment?
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From: Amsterdam
The tacho time is an indication of engine wear and in a sense, fuel consumption as well. It's also really hard to mess with. But it is not linear: a tacho runs faster as the engine runs faster. So technically you cannot use it for your logbook in any case. But it does make sense to use it as basis for the bill.
For your log book, indeed, you have to use the moment the aircraft moves (I think actually under its own power) for the purpose of taking off, to the moment it comes to a final stop.
A hobbs meter, connected to something that measures when the engine is running (eg. oil pressure) is more accurate and can be used to log time, as long as you move (a few centimeters) immediately after starting the engine, and shut down the engine immediately after stopping. But a hobbs meter can be connected to anything that has a switch, basically, so not every hobbs meter can be used for this purpose. There are hobbs meters that are just connected to the battery master (leading to situations where people fly with the electrics off, to save money) or hobbs meters that are connected to a pressure instrument in the pitot tube, so that the hobbs meter is only activated while actually flying.
As far as a check flight is concerned: It is my opinion that if it's a check flight required by the club or the insurance company, but not by the CAA/JAA, then you can log it as P1, regardless of whether there's an instructor or a designated pilot or monkey checking you out. But I do know that some people disagree. Ample proof of that on PPRuNe.
If it's the bi-annual proficiency check, then you have to log it like you would log a pre-PPL instruction flight, as "dual" or PIC/UT or whatever. After all, the CAA wants to see that you received one hour of training as part of the twelve hours, not?
For your log book, indeed, you have to use the moment the aircraft moves (I think actually under its own power) for the purpose of taking off, to the moment it comes to a final stop.
A hobbs meter, connected to something that measures when the engine is running (eg. oil pressure) is more accurate and can be used to log time, as long as you move (a few centimeters) immediately after starting the engine, and shut down the engine immediately after stopping. But a hobbs meter can be connected to anything that has a switch, basically, so not every hobbs meter can be used for this purpose. There are hobbs meters that are just connected to the battery master (leading to situations where people fly with the electrics off, to save money) or hobbs meters that are connected to a pressure instrument in the pitot tube, so that the hobbs meter is only activated while actually flying.
As far as a check flight is concerned: It is my opinion that if it's a check flight required by the club or the insurance company, but not by the CAA/JAA, then you can log it as P1, regardless of whether there's an instructor or a designated pilot or monkey checking you out. But I do know that some people disagree. Ample proof of that on PPRuNe.
If it's the bi-annual proficiency check, then you have to log it like you would log a pre-PPL instruction flight, as "dual" or PIC/UT or whatever. After all, the CAA wants to see that you received one hour of training as part of the twelve hours, not?
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a check flight:- is that still PU/T? your demonstrating your abilities to fly P1 and not undertaking any training...I logged one recently as PU/T and this thread got me thinking...
Well, if the CAA asks, you've got to be able to supply your log books for, what, five years back?
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
For your log book, indeed, you have to use the moment the aircraft moves (I think actually under its own power) for the purpose of taking off, to the moment it comes to a final stop.
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From: Amsterdam
Yes. So you don't log taxiing to the fuel pump; but you do log taxiing to the hold then back again having decided that you didn't like the power check.
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Fly Conventional Gear
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From: Winchester
Well I don't see how it can be logged as PU/T, the same goes for all the other spurious check flights like cross channel. Either you are P1 or the instructor is. But there is no club or channel rating so the instructor cannot formally teach it, so it cannot be PU/T. Unless, as mentioned above you use it as you revalidation hour.
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I would guess that as PFLs, Spins, Aeros, etc are part of a CAA recognised syllabus and so it would be loggable as PUT. If they are not then by what measure are you receiving training rather than opinion?
I'm really referring to the requirement to be accompanied by an instructor not because you need it or because of JAR-FCL requirements, but due to the club/group/insurance requirements/rules.
Perhaps I'm taking LASORS too literally?
I'm really referring to the requirement to be accompanied by an instructor not because you need it or because of JAR-FCL requirements, but due to the club/group/insurance requirements/rules.
Perhaps I'm taking LASORS too literally?
Thread Starter
Fly Conventional Gear
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From: Winchester
Thanks BEagle, that's what I was expecting and hoping to here. Thank you to everyone for the replies.
When I was in the US last time I was told that if you had a Private Certificate (which I did) and a valid type rating (SEP) then all flights even if they were 'training flights' which in the UK would be P/UT could be logged as PIC. Apart from the apparent double standard (the instructor is also logging this as PIC) I was wondering how to reconcile the different ways of logging in different countries/systems in one logbook...do I just ignore the FAA way and just log as if I was in the UK? Or should I mix and match? Or should I simply buy a new logbook for flying done in America?
When I was in the US last time I was told that if you had a Private Certificate (which I did) and a valid type rating (SEP) then all flights even if they were 'training flights' which in the UK would be P/UT could be logged as PIC. Apart from the apparent double standard (the instructor is also logging this as PIC) I was wondering how to reconcile the different ways of logging in different countries/systems in one logbook...do I just ignore the FAA way and just log as if I was in the UK? Or should I mix and match? Or should I simply buy a new logbook for flying done in America?
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From: Belfast
The tacho time is an indication of engine wear and in a sense, fuel consumption as well. It's also really hard to mess with. But it is not linear: a tacho runs faster as the engine runs faster. So technically you cannot use it for your logbook in any case.
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From: Amsterdam
I'll make matters a little more complicated for you.
- Engine start/stop times (assuming you move the aircraft immediately after/before) are used in your log book.
- Take off and landing times are technically used to calculate airframe hours, and are thus used to calculate when a 50/100 hour check is due.
- Tacho time is used to calculate engine wear.
At our club, we record engine start, take-off, landing and engine off, and we record the tach at the end of the trip. Obviously having verified the renter before us entered the correct tach at the end of his trip. So six numbers in total.
- Engine start/stop times (assuming you move the aircraft immediately after/before) are used in your log book.
- Take off and landing times are technically used to calculate airframe hours, and are thus used to calculate when a 50/100 hour check is due.
- Tacho time is used to calculate engine wear.
At our club, we record engine start, take-off, landing and engine off, and we record the tach at the end of the trip. Obviously having verified the renter before us entered the correct tach at the end of his trip. So six numbers in total.
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Thread Starter
Fly Conventional Gear
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From: Winchester
Also another logging irritation, when the hobbs meter is used by a club all the times are in decimal- but my logbook is in hrs:mins. In the US they usually use the hobbs meter for personal logbooks as well...converting hobbs into minutes gives 12 minutes to each decimal place. So much for all my flights being rounded to the nearest 5 minutes.
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From: 75N 16E
It is 6 minutes, not 12.....basic maths, 60 divided by 10 = 6 
The FI logs "as flight instructor" and PIC , the "student" logs PIC and dual received.
Anyway, my way of doing things is that I log flights in N reg with FAA CFI's the FAA way, and flights in G reg with JAA FI's the CAA way. I consider my FAA ticket the "primary" ticket and my JAA one "secondary", and as long as I meet the various requirements for either authority it doesn't matter.
Apart from the apparent double standard (the instructor is also logging this as PIC) I was wondering how to reconcile the different ways of logging in different countries/systems in one logbook...do I just ignore the FAA way and just log as if I was in the UK? Or should I mix and match? Or should I simply buy a new logbook for flying done in America?
Anyway, my way of doing things is that I log flights in N reg with FAA CFI's the FAA way, and flights in G reg with JAA FI's the CAA way. I consider my FAA ticket the "primary" ticket and my JAA one "secondary", and as long as I meet the various requirements for either authority it doesn't matter.
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From: Oxford
I think this question of 'it's only training if it's towards something the CAA gives you' is a red herring. When I finished my PPL I converted onto a PA28. That was definitely training - I thought so, the instructor thought so, and the club hiring to me definitely thought so. I logged it P/UT. But there's no PA28 rating - if I'd gone out and bought my own I would have been within my rights (though stupid) to have flown it straight off.
Tim
Tim