How do civilan pilots view military pilots
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Having done both civvy and Military flying in my Yoof, then taking a long break before starting Civvy again, the 3 aspects of military flying that all GA pilots should adopt is:
1. Discipline, do it right every time, all the drills, all the manoeuvres, all the numbers, aim to get them perfect, if you can't, go practice.
2. Lookout, treat all other traffic as the enemy, maintain your spacial awareness
3. Practice a Major emergency on every flight, that way when the real thing happens, the immediate actions happen automatically giving you the capacity to think clearly about your flying and your next course of action.
In my view those are the 3 key things that separate the communities
1. Discipline, do it right every time, all the drills, all the manoeuvres, all the numbers, aim to get them perfect, if you can't, go practice.
2. Lookout, treat all other traffic as the enemy, maintain your spacial awareness
3. Practice a Major emergency on every flight, that way when the real thing happens, the immediate actions happen automatically giving you the capacity to think clearly about your flying and your next course of action.
In my view those are the 3 key things that separate the communities
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but intrusion into a MATZ is no offence at all
If that sums up how you feel about entering a MATZ, then god help us. It might not be a requirement, but any GA puddle jumper who thinks that they are within the rules and therefore beyond reproach if they bimble through a MATZ unannounced then they are not fit to hold any licence
It would show a woeful lack of airmanship and arrogance
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0172; 13th Jan 2014 at 22:58.
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I fly military and civil hardware so perhaps have a balanced view. I flew a civil bit of kit into a small puddle jumper airfield and was appalled by the standard of R/T. A military pilot would be crucified for such rubbish which I guess is the difference. Military pilots are under constant threat of being binned for being rubbish...not so for the civvie. My skills are better for doing both sorts of flying though.
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Oh for heaven's sake, Dirty_Sanchez. Of course I know that flying into a MATZ is dangerous and poor airmanship. I am based in the middle of one, for f@@k's sake.
But it's not an offence, which I believe was the word I used. It's not illegal. It's not against the law. Mr Plod won't come after you for it.
There, is that clear?
Tim
But it's not an offence, which I believe was the word I used. It's not illegal. It's not against the law. Mr Plod won't come after you for it.
There, is that clear?
Tim
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I refer my lords to the comment about military egos.........
In some ways, private flying can be more cliquey (sp??) than mil flying IMHO so I guess it is just human nature for those who lack ability to make up for it by being overconfident. (dangerous in aviation don't you think)
As they say, pride comes before a fall.............and I hope you wont find a mil pilot (banter aside) who genuinely thinks they are superior to anyone who aviates for fun.
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Now now Bose, there is a difference between confidence and arrogance/ego, as I am sure you will know if you have done some flying training with the RAF. In fact, I am happy to say those with arrogance that outstripped their ability were successfully weeded out.
In some ways, private flying can be more cliquey (sp??) than mil flying IMHO so I guess it is just human nature for those who lack ability to make up for it by being overconfident. (dangerous in aviation don't you think)
As they say, pride comes before a fall.............and I hope you wont find a mil pilot (banter aside) who genuinely thinks they are superior to anyone who aviates for fun.
In some ways, private flying can be more cliquey (sp??) than mil flying IMHO so I guess it is just human nature for those who lack ability to make up for it by being overconfident. (dangerous in aviation don't you think)
As they say, pride comes before a fall.............and I hope you wont find a mil pilot (banter aside) who genuinely thinks they are superior to anyone who aviates for fun.
However the ego comments revolves around the view by military flyers of the GA world. Your comment about GA puddle jumpers show either extreme arrogance looking down on GA hence my comment or a naive lack of understanding of the GA world.
Some of the finest pilots I have come across have been GA pilots. I am prepared to show respect for all elements of aviation. Perhaps you could start improving civvi/Mil relations by acknowledging that there are pros out there in GA as well.
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Puddle Jumpers:
Jet-jocks (pilots) drive Tonkas (Tornados) , Multi-Mates (multi engined pilots) drive Timmy's (TriStars) , Pongo's (Army) dont always smell, and Fish-heads (Navy) can be found aboard ship not swimming below it. Puddle Jumpers (GA) drive Cessnas, Pipers and a multitude of other light aircraft. Nigels (pilots) work for BA (British Airways) and I dare say we could start a whole new thread on 'name - associations' which only a PC tree hugging school teacher would object to. Oops, sorry teach!
Military ethos of every nation in the world, regardless of rank; or land / sea / air role operate in this way. You may not like it, but it is here to stay, and it has nothing to do with arrogance or ego, but much to do with the sensitivity of a receiver that takes for granted a good nights sleep whilst thousands defend his/her right for free speech.
"Rubber dog**** out of Honk Kong" nowadays is the least of our worries. I suspect (but do not know) that the term dates back to when flight was literally across fields (& puddles), so blame Cody & the Wright Brothers!
Military ethos of every nation in the world, regardless of rank; or land / sea / air role operate in this way. You may not like it, but it is here to stay, and it has nothing to do with arrogance or ego, but much to do with the sensitivity of a receiver that takes for granted a good nights sleep whilst thousands defend his/her right for free speech.
"Rubber dog**** out of Honk Kong" nowadays is the least of our worries. I suspect (but do not know) that the term dates back to when flight was literally across fields (& puddles), so blame Cody & the Wright Brothers!
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Thank you for the lesson in Military lingo, however after 12 years commissioned I am fully aware of it and the military mindset behind. So lets not be so naive as to think this is a cultural communication issue. I have the benefit of seeing from both side of the fence.
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Your comment about GA puddle jumpers show either extreme arrogance looking down on GA hence my comment or a naive lack of understanding of the GA world.
Regards
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The answer is that civil pilts cannot give their opinions without mil or ex-mil types defending or setting the agenda.
The regimes are very different - but those differences are telling - If I as a civil piliot operated to mil rules then I would drive a horse and cart through the ANO. From my view that means their perception of risk management is so different that they should not operate in the same airspace. This is largely what happen in much of the rest of Europe but not here.
The pilots - very good - highly trained and motivated. Exactly the sort of people that insurance companies load very heavily for cars....
The military create a comprehensive framework to try and control this - but people who are trained to fight must be self confident - even arrogant!
Should they wargame amongst GA traffic - I don't think so. To misquote Iceman - you're dangerous - you should n't be in my airspace
The regimes are very different - but those differences are telling - If I as a civil piliot operated to mil rules then I would drive a horse and cart through the ANO. From my view that means their perception of risk management is so different that they should not operate in the same airspace. This is largely what happen in much of the rest of Europe but not here.
The pilots - very good - highly trained and motivated. Exactly the sort of people that insurance companies load very heavily for cars....
The military create a comprehensive framework to try and control this - but people who are trained to fight must be self confident - even arrogant!
Should they wargame amongst GA traffic - I don't think so. To misquote Iceman - you're dangerous - you should n't be in my airspace
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DS - you said "bimble through a MATZ unannounced then they are not fit to hold any licence"
Do you hold the same view of military pilots busting and ATZ or CAS at several hundred knots, because occasionally they do and I have not heard of one yet being permanently grounded. I am not saying they should be of course just seeking your views about the apposite side of the coin.
Do you hold the same view of military pilots busting and ATZ or CAS at several hundred knots, because occasionally they do and I have not heard of one yet being permanently grounded. I am not saying they should be of course just seeking your views about the apposite side of the coin.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I am not aware of a large number of GA or Mil pilots trainee spearing in but there would always be the tendency to stick with it trying to recover and possibly too long. There is plenty of evidence of this with the Martin Baker let down where escape had been initiated outside the envelope.
I suppose one analogy might be the GA pilot driving a car without a seat belt. Would you fly on the edge because you had a parachute? I doubt it, not in training anyway. If flying to the extent that the parachute insurance policy might be needed would mean a significant (just one) trainer crashing when we cannot afford it we would not!
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Should they wargame amongst GA traffic - I don't think so. To misquote Iceman - you're dangerous - you shouldn't be in my airspace.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
Orwell said that. He probably realised how much effort those "rough men" went to in order to free up a bit of class G for you to puddle jump through.
I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post with a response.
Do you hold the same view of military pilots busting and ATZ or CAS at several hundred knots, because occasionally they do and I have not heard of one yet being permanently grounded.
To the outsider military flying can often appear irresistable fun. It can be, at times, and that is one of the rewards. Just don't forget that with the reward comes great responsibility. Most military aircrew respect civilian pilots and have met excellent aviators from both sides of the fence. There are occasional bad eggs - on both sides - but they are not typical. All I would ask is that the GA community remember the enormous pressures of military flying. It is a job, and one in which you are often under the hanging blade.
There is an adage; "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, rather than the other way around." One day, that military crew might not have the luxury of that choice.
Blunty
True, but they gave up that choice when they presented themselves to the career office! I've lost friends civilian flying, they went to the airport that day wanting to do the best they could, full of motivation and good airmanship skills and for various reasons they were unlucky.
This is a rather pointless thread where no one answer or view point is more correct than the other. Let's just agree that we all love aeroplanes and we all love to fly and just try to respect all aviators regardless if civil or mil.
This is a rather pointless thread where no one answer or view point is more correct than the other. Let's just agree that we all love aeroplanes and we all love to fly and just try to respect all aviators regardless if civil or mil.
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Bose - After your time in uniform you really shouldn't be getting your knickers in such a twist over the phrase "puddle jumper", and should be well aware that it isn't intended as an insult. Banter, maybe, but then other aircraft types/squadrons/services also come in for such. Or did bluntydom wipe out your perception of banter?
Gasax - Still interested to hear whereabouts you're based. Insch? I too am not going to justify your last post with a response - other than to say that if anyone's "dangerous" and shouldn't be allowed in Class G, than the PPL'er on a bimble (who will almost certainly be less current, less supervised, and less well trained than his military counterpart) is probably a better candidate. NOT saying that PPL flying should be banned, far from it, just pointing out the idiocy of your last comment.
Gasax - Still interested to hear whereabouts you're based. Insch? I too am not going to justify your last post with a response - other than to say that if anyone's "dangerous" and shouldn't be allowed in Class G, than the PPL'er on a bimble (who will almost certainly be less current, less supervised, and less well trained than his military counterpart) is probably a better candidate. NOT saying that PPL flying should be banned, far from it, just pointing out the idiocy of your last comment.