Flying to France
Thread Starter
Sage advice from all - thanks Bose-X et al.
So, it seems the sensible plan is to go on a weekday, Norfolk - Lydd (refuel and loo stop!), Lydd - Gris Nez (short crossing - I have no artificial horizon), Gris Nez - Le Touquet, lunch, paperwork, home via reverse route.
Fingers crossed...!
So, it seems the sensible plan is to go on a weekday, Norfolk - Lydd (refuel and loo stop!), Lydd - Gris Nez (short crossing - I have no artificial horizon), Gris Nez - Le Touquet, lunch, paperwork, home via reverse route.
Fingers crossed...!
Thread Starter
Thanks to the good advice received on here, I've just ordered 2 lifejackets, and hope to impress Mrs Snapper with a casual 'fancy lunch in France, dear?' in the near future!
Professional Student
Thanks for the advice/links everybody - I'm off to Le Touquet this Friday, weather permitting, and had planned to trawl through the Internet...only to find this thread! Perfect timing 
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I'm off to Le Touquet this Friday, weather permitting,
Thats the flying bit, but if you have not been before you might find the following useful:
1. You can rent a bike at the airport. It is good fun and a really easy cycle into town. I'd recommend it,
2. You can now walk to the Supermarche. The trick is out the main gate and cross the old runway (through the hole in the fence) then second turn on the left the other side. Takes about 10 minutes. Take a trolley with you from the airport and bring back your wine!
3. Best resteraunt in the town is the fish resteraunt half way down the high street, turning on the left with the fresh fish stand out the front. Cant remember what it is called but head and shoulders above the others.
When you done that head for Lille next time.
It looks like a big scary airport but the folks there are great. the landing fee is less than L2K, it is only another 30 minutes or so, bus every 15 minutes inot and back from the City and loads of good resteraunts, food shops and a few things to see. I'd recommend you give it a try. Only hassle is allow a bit more time for security than at L2K.
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Snapper41, no artificial horizon. Make sure you have at least a turn co ordinator, and are happy in IMC'ish conditions, even on a good day.
I have done that trip around 8 times now, and only once was it proper VFR all the way accross the pond
I have done that trip around 8 times now, and only once was it proper VFR all the way accross the pond
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If you coast out, can't see a horizon straight in front of you and do not feel comfortable getting your reference from other things that you can see outside your (side) windows (or an artificial horizon if you have one), TURN BACK before the horizon behind you disappears as well.
If you want to try crossing at a lower level than intended, turn back first, descend over land, then try again. At a lower level, the horizon will be closer and it might be easier to see the sea/air separation. But if it's foggy, going lower will not help.
If you do not have an artificial horizon and are not comfortable with taking your reference from the sight out of the windows, don't turn it into an unprepared and unsupervised IMC partial panel lesson by flying with sole reference to the turn coordinator. L2K has been there for many years and will surely be there another day.
hobbit, snapper, don't let this put you off though. If you, like anything in flying, are aware of this perfect-VMC-is-almost-IMC phenomenon, know your aircraft and your own limitations, and do not suffer from get-there-itis or a lack of decision-making skills, you should be fine.
If you want to try crossing at a lower level than intended, turn back first, descend over land, then try again. At a lower level, the horizon will be closer and it might be easier to see the sea/air separation. But if it's foggy, going lower will not help.
If you do not have an artificial horizon and are not comfortable with taking your reference from the sight out of the windows, don't turn it into an unprepared and unsupervised IMC partial panel lesson by flying with sole reference to the turn coordinator. L2K has been there for many years and will surely be there another day.
hobbit, snapper, don't let this put you off though. If you, like anything in flying, are aware of this perfect-VMC-is-almost-IMC phenomenon, know your aircraft and your own limitations, and do not suffer from get-there-itis or a lack of decision-making skills, you should be fine.
The Original Whirly
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Backpacker is spot-on with this. I would say, if you're inexperienced and/or short of instruments such as an AI, make sure you do the shortest crossing unless conditions are perfect. That is, go from Lydd up the coast to Dover before you coast out, and head for Cap Gris Nez. That way you will have the greatest number of ships in sight (they really, really help) and the shortest crossing without sight of land. But do turn back if you find you're getting disorientated, and sooner rather than later. There's a nice hotel near Manston for lunch if you have to!
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The actual exemption quoted by Bookworm differs from the press release issued by the CAA three days earlier, which stated:
I suppose the requirement for a PLB is implied, rather than stated.
... a general exemption will be issued permitting a Personal Locator Beacon to be carried, in lieu of an Emergency Locator Transmitter, whilst a further review is undertaken.
I suppose the requirement for a PLB is implied, rather than stated.
Didn't stop me from buying a PLB thought!
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Don't have a reference, but local procedures in Elstree mean Special Branch (Herts) can be very sticky unless 24 hours notice given.
I tried faxing centrally late one night a few weeks ago at the absolute minimum 12 hours notice, Elstree wouldn't authorize me to depart as they hadn't received SB approval. Local rules can be very quirky !!
I tried faxing centrally late one night a few weeks ago at the absolute minimum 12 hours notice, Elstree wouldn't authorize me to depart as they hadn't received SB approval. Local rules can be very quirky !!
I think I'd file the flight plan over the net, with the departure marked as going from somewhere like Rochester, Headcorn, or Lydd. Then just tell Elstree you're off on a flight to Rochester, Headcorn, or Lydd. Land, top off the tanks (to maximise the drawback), put the life jackets on, and away you go.
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Question ('cos I haven't been there this year): Do Le T now insist on mode C transponders? (They got Class D last year, and initially said in an email to me that they would not want Mode C transponders until they got radar, expected later last year, then after that they would insist on them).
Question: Don't you now need liferaft as well as lifejackets now? (the locator exemption was to not need locators at all, but I thought the liferaft and lifejackets exemption was that you still needed them both, but they did not need to be approved)
Question: Why doesn't everyone from Elstree heading for the Channel isles simply go via Cherbourg. 4 flight plans (60 minutes notice), 1 Customs return notification for later faxed as you set off, no SB notificiation. It costs a very cheap landing fee at Cherbourg but turn around time is very fast - or you can take lunch at Luc's.
Question: Don't you now need liferaft as well as lifejackets now? (the locator exemption was to not need locators at all, but I thought the liferaft and lifejackets exemption was that you still needed them both, but they did not need to be approved)
Question: Why doesn't everyone from Elstree heading for the Channel isles simply go via Cherbourg. 4 flight plans (60 minutes notice), 1 Customs return notification for later faxed as you set off, no SB notificiation. It costs a very cheap landing fee at Cherbourg but turn around time is very fast - or you can take lunch at Luc's.
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I'm off to Alderney on Friday.....Elstree to Southampton then across the channel to Alderney maybe land at Cherbourg. Will i need to contact Plymouth Mil as it states on the map? or Southampton Radar then France? Any need for SB in S'hampton?
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Southampton PPR, remember, as notam'd.
Plymouth Mil LARS not around this week, as notam'd.
a) do you need to include Southampton? If you do, that would mean you comply with all the special branch stuff, but it's an expensive landing fee and PPR. If you then departed direct line Alderney it would be fairly normal to either stay with Southampton, or use Bournemouth LARs, or London FIS til about 10 minutes from 50N, and you'd have to remain below FL035 under that R41 airway.Ten minutes from 50N, you call Jersey Zone. Don't stray down Bournemouth sea front, there's a RA(T) for Red Arrows on Friday.
b) if you don't include Southampton you could either give SB notice to depart Elstree, or go to any customs field enroute OR use Cherbourg enroute. If you go to cherbourg, or use the shorter IOW-MP VFR crossing you can check the status of danger areas mid channel via the NATS operational website or London Info will tell you - I think they are usually active 'office hours'. If you go via France whether you land at Cherbourg or not, you have to be slightly careful that you thread between the ZITs on the Cherbourg peninsula west coast, as an SVFR entry for Jersey Zone from France is likely to be not above 1500'
Plymouth Mil LARS not around this week, as notam'd.
a) do you need to include Southampton? If you do, that would mean you comply with all the special branch stuff, but it's an expensive landing fee and PPR. If you then departed direct line Alderney it would be fairly normal to either stay with Southampton, or use Bournemouth LARs, or London FIS til about 10 minutes from 50N, and you'd have to remain below FL035 under that R41 airway.Ten minutes from 50N, you call Jersey Zone. Don't stray down Bournemouth sea front, there's a RA(T) for Red Arrows on Friday.
b) if you don't include Southampton you could either give SB notice to depart Elstree, or go to any customs field enroute OR use Cherbourg enroute. If you go to cherbourg, or use the shorter IOW-MP VFR crossing you can check the status of danger areas mid channel via the NATS operational website or London Info will tell you - I think they are usually active 'office hours'. If you go via France whether you land at Cherbourg or not, you have to be slightly careful that you thread between the ZITs on the Cherbourg peninsula west coast, as an SVFR entry for Jersey Zone from France is likely to be not above 1500'
Last edited by Irv; 15th Aug 2007 at 23:31. Reason: spelling
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I've done EGTR - EGJA many times. Very straightforward, only stickypoint is getting zone transit through Southampton zone. Give them a call just past Compton. In my experience if you have good RT they let you transit 90% of the time.
Be prepared to be asked to go to VRP's which are worth programming into your GPS to save hasstle. If they sound very busy you might save time and route east around the Isle of Wight
Asyou coast out you will be handed over to Bournemouth, Jersey Zone, Guernsey Approach and finally Alderney Tower respectively.
Sometimes, even with great weather it can be really, really hazy (64 miles of water to cover) so be comfortable with instrument flying.
ALderney is a fantastic little island to visit, don't tell too many people ! Enjoy !
LF
Be prepared to be asked to go to VRP's which are worth programming into your GPS to save hasstle. If they sound very busy you might save time and route east around the Isle of Wight
Asyou coast out you will be handed over to Bournemouth, Jersey Zone, Guernsey Approach and finally Alderney Tower respectively.
Sometimes, even with great weather it can be really, really hazy (64 miles of water to cover) so be comfortable with instrument flying.
ALderney is a fantastic little island to visit, don't tell too many people ! Enjoy !
LF
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and you'd have to remain below FL035 under that R41 airway.
Close to the CAP they will turn you west direct to Alderney.
If you have not done it before also expect to be taken through the zone at low level - not above 1,5000 or even 1,000 feet. It may seem a bit disconcerting being that low over the sea if you have not done it before. Why they do it I have never been entirely sure, and if you ask for higher you almost always get it.
All much simpler IFR but unfortunately you need an IR to use the airway and the zone (other than outside published hours).
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Fuji Abound,
I have never been asked by Jersey to route to Cap de la Harge, I always specify SAM - ORTAC- EGJA in my flight plan which might be why, it saves a bit of time.
When I was in Alderney last week, I hear a french pilot stupidly encroached the danger area of the nuclear power station at the Cap recently and got himself a 10,000 Euro fine, avery expensive mistake as it is so well NOTAMed.
(BTW High pressure can easily push you into the R41 airway inadvertently if you're not paying attention, not that we've had a lot of that recently !)
LF
I have never been asked by Jersey to route to Cap de la Harge, I always specify SAM - ORTAC- EGJA in my flight plan which might be why, it saves a bit of time.
When I was in Alderney last week, I hear a french pilot stupidly encroached the danger area of the nuclear power station at the Cap recently and got himself a 10,000 Euro fine, avery expensive mistake as it is so well NOTAMed.
(BTW High pressure can easily push you into the R41 airway inadvertently if you're not paying attention, not that we've had a lot of that recently !)
LF
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Euro 10,000 fine
Does anyone have a reference to the Euro 10,000 (or aircraft confiscation) fines being actually imposed, and the circumstances?
In a totally perverse way, having such fines here would be a good thing because so many people (a few hundred a year) would bust the permanent RAs it would force an immediate overhaul of the decrepit WW1 navigation syllabus in the PPL.
Of course, we all know that the French don't teach the PPL all that differently. They have VMC on top privileges so presumably they do teach proper VOR navigation, but the answer must be either that there is hardly any GA activity on France (other than very local flights) or these ridiculous fines are never actually imposed. I honestly don't know which applies.
I do know the DGAC pursues people vigorously; I had a narrow escape a few years ago. Whether the fines are levied is what I don't know.
In a totally perverse way, having such fines here would be a good thing because so many people (a few hundred a year) would bust the permanent RAs it would force an immediate overhaul of the decrepit WW1 navigation syllabus in the PPL.
Of course, we all know that the French don't teach the PPL all that differently. They have VMC on top privileges so presumably they do teach proper VOR navigation, but the answer must be either that there is hardly any GA activity on France (other than very local flights) or these ridiculous fines are never actually imposed. I honestly don't know which applies.
I do know the DGAC pursues people vigorously; I had a narrow escape a few years ago. Whether the fines are levied is what I don't know.