ATC: Right turn in final.. for faster plane behind??
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Originally Posted by kolibear
The other interesting scenario is if the slow a/c on final does decide to pull up and go around and the faster a/c coming along behind him has already made that same decision too
At the risk of sounding too big for my boots, which is not intended, such a manoever is not unknown to me and wasn't when I was training. I completed my training at a biggish airport and it was a fact of life that if GA was to continue there we had to be subservient to the big boys who paid everybody's wages.
I was often told things like "you are number 2 to a 737 with a 757 on 8 mile final, I may have to break you off if he gets too close."
If that happened it was open the tap, cancel the carb heat, level off, check the speed, lose drag flap, turn 90 cimb back to 1000 feet and generally loiter around a mile or so off the approach (often orbitting the hatters football ground), ready to nip back in when there was space.
I think 400 - 500 feet was about the floor of when it ever happened though.
I suppose in my book it was just classed as good experience.
DGG
I was often told things like "you are number 2 to a 737 with a 757 on 8 mile final, I may have to break you off if he gets too close."
If that happened it was open the tap, cancel the carb heat, level off, check the speed, lose drag flap, turn 90 cimb back to 1000 feet and generally loiter around a mile or so off the approach (often orbitting the hatters football ground), ready to nip back in when there was space.
I think 400 - 500 feet was about the floor of when it ever happened though.
I suppose in my book it was just classed as good experience.
DGG
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 16th Aug 2007 at 07:17.
#1 Aviate Begin goaround and get a/c stabilised in climb.
#3 Communicate Advise ATC "XYZ going around -- unable to turn at this moment -- will advise when ready" or "XYZ going around -- will turn once climb stabilised"
As for a/c behind you, he'll be watching you.
#3 Communicate Advise ATC "XYZ going around -- unable to turn at this moment -- will advise when ready" or "XYZ going around -- will turn once climb stabilised"
As for a/c behind you, he'll be watching you.
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Was once asked to orbit 360 when established on an ILS in IMC at four miles to TD, due to a 737 in a hurry behind me (I was flying C303). This was in SE Asia. Needless to say I politely declined.
It does however grip my sh#t like nothing else to read of a young 16 year old student pilot dying because someone was too disorganised/lazy/rude/impatient/idiotic....(take your pick, mix and match,) to do the right thing.
Maybe I am a bolshie bugg#r but dumb requests are always going to get an "unable to comply" response from me, just on principle, so they don't get used to too much compliance in these situations.
It does however grip my sh#t like nothing else to read of a young 16 year old student pilot dying because someone was too disorganised/lazy/rude/impatient/idiotic....(take your pick, mix and match,) to do the right thing.
Maybe I am a bolshie bugg#r but dumb requests are always going to get an "unable to comply" response from me, just on principle, so they don't get used to too much compliance in these situations.
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Maybe I am a bolshie bugg#r but dumb requests are always going to get an "unable to comply" response from me, just on principle, so they don't get used to too much compliance in these situations.
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Maybe they know they can easely pull it off with a student pilot in a C152.
I am not suggesting that the young lad who died should have been able to do it at that stage of his training.
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I have been taught to go around from a very low (less than 20' above the runway) height.
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I probably do :-(. My experience as an IFR flight has always been of fantastic ATC service with some clever and graceful sequencing.
Back to the thread -
I struggle a bit with why a low level orbit on final (vs a go around) makes sense. If the one behind is a largish jet, one orbit isn't going to give much wake separation and if it is a fast GA type then orbiting him once on long final seems safer with little impact on capacity than a low level orbit. If problem is the plan went t!ts up then a go around with the C152 orbiting on base for a gap seems safe and expeditious.
Back to the thread -
I struggle a bit with why a low level orbit on final (vs a go around) makes sense. If the one behind is a largish jet, one orbit isn't going to give much wake separation and if it is a fast GA type then orbiting him once on long final seems safer with little impact on capacity than a low level orbit. If problem is the plan went t!ts up then a go around with the C152 orbiting on base for a gap seems safe and expeditious.
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I struggle a bit with why a low level orbit on final (vs a go around) makes sense
Crappy way to be proved right though
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DX Wombat,
If you haven't had any aerobatic training, I suggest that you get an intro, and see what happens when you are a little slow and let your turn get uncoordinated, as you might be when slow to add in power and not concentrating on the P-factor , its a real wake up call for those interested in unplanned low level manoeuvering without a fistful of afterburner under their left hand.......no..no...NO...NO...absolutely not and whoever taught you that it was OK should be jailed 
If you haven't had any aerobatic training, I suggest that you get an intro, and see what happens when you are a little slow and let your turn get uncoordinated, as you might be when slow to add in power and not concentrating on the P-factor , its a real wake up call for those interested in unplanned low level manoeuvering without a fistful of afterburner under their left hand.......no..no...NO...NO...absolutely not
and whoever taught you that it was OK should be jailed
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What makes you think I would be slow to apply full power for the go-around? Or indeed that I haven't been taught to watch my speed and power settings very carefully? It isn't just the Aerobatics Instructors who know how to fly aircraft, there are good FIs out there in the more normal world too. Perhaps you would prefer me to allow the aircraft to slam into the ground when caught by a sudden, strong, crosswind gust? I would prefer to go around and not run the risk of serious injury and damage to the aircraft. Please don't criticise the FI who taught me and whose qualifications and experience make him eminently more qualified to teach me than you are.
Last edited by DX Wombat; 14th Aug 2007 at 23:04.
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As i read this I am quivering with awful reminiscence...
when i was 16, too (a coupla years ago...) a similar thing happened to me.
I was on my SECOND SOLO!! I was at 350-400 ft, and told by the tower to "carry out immediate orbit to the right". Apparantly - and they proceeded to tell me all of this at the time - an aircraft had joined nordo, straight in, on 34... and the current runway was 16.
As i look back now, I don't know how on earth I am still alive. I was freaking out to start with, as I had all this chatter in my ear that i didn't really understand. I didn't increase the power. And when I looked down at my turn indicator near the end of the turn the ball was certainly nowhere near the middle.
so, whilst it wasn't ATC's fault that the joining aircraft did what he did, it certainly begs the question whether the whole situation could have been handled differently.
Me thinks so.
when i was 16, too (a coupla years ago...) a similar thing happened to me.
I was on my SECOND SOLO!! I was at 350-400 ft, and told by the tower to "carry out immediate orbit to the right". Apparantly - and they proceeded to tell me all of this at the time - an aircraft had joined nordo, straight in, on 34... and the current runway was 16.
As i look back now, I don't know how on earth I am still alive. I was freaking out to start with, as I had all this chatter in my ear that i didn't really understand. I didn't increase the power. And when I looked down at my turn indicator near the end of the turn the ball was certainly nowhere near the middle.
so, whilst it wasn't ATC's fault that the joining aircraft did what he did, it certainly begs the question whether the whole situation could have been handled differently.
Me thinks so.
In my early solos, I was once # 2 on final when I happened to spot another a/c on short final on the opposite runway
In KC's situation the appropriate ATC instruction would have been: "Go around and remain right of the runway -- opposite landing traffic".
A go-around instruction will have the pilot establishing a climb configuration -- i.e. looking after power, carb heat, flaps, pitch and trim. It's a very busy time in a Cessna, especially with >= 30 flap.
Once established in a climb is the time for ATC to give a turn.
In KC's situation the appropriate ATC instruction would have been: "Go around and remain right of the runway -- opposite landing traffic".
A go-around instruction will have the pilot establishing a climb configuration -- i.e. looking after power, carb heat, flaps, pitch and trim. It's a very busy time in a Cessna, especially with >= 30 flap.
Once established in a climb is the time for ATC to give a turn.
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Easy one this.
ATC have the authority to decide whether you land or not.
400' is about 1.25 nm on a 3 degree glide - not exactly over the numbers.
ATC instruction "OO-XXX make immediate right turn"
PIC response "Tower, OO-XXX going around"
A PIC is responsible for the safety of HIS/HER aircraft, if ATC have got their planning wrong, don't make a drama out of it, but fall back onto a known and safe procedure to take control of your aircraft safety - its a command decision that you are perfectly entitled to make, just as ATC can change a clearance.
ATC can then safely fit you back into the sequence, perhaps by an early turn to downwind.
If you were higher, say 1,000 feet, then an orbit would be perfectly safe - I personally wouldn't wish to play around at 400' - if you got some kind of upset (wake turb or whatever) there isn't much recovery buffer.
At the end of the day, as IO540, Bookworm and others say, commercial airports give priority to the higher paying customers - I for one don't see the problem with that so long as safety is not compromised.
ATC have the authority to decide whether you land or not.
400' is about 1.25 nm on a 3 degree glide - not exactly over the numbers.
ATC instruction "OO-XXX make immediate right turn"
PIC response "Tower, OO-XXX going around"
A PIC is responsible for the safety of HIS/HER aircraft, if ATC have got their planning wrong, don't make a drama out of it, but fall back onto a known and safe procedure to take control of your aircraft safety - its a command decision that you are perfectly entitled to make, just as ATC can change a clearance.
ATC can then safely fit you back into the sequence, perhaps by an early turn to downwind.
If you were higher, say 1,000 feet, then an orbit would be perfectly safe - I personally wouldn't wish to play around at 400' - if you got some kind of upset (wake turb or whatever) there isn't much recovery buffer.
At the end of the day, as IO540, Bookworm and others say, commercial airports give priority to the higher paying customers - I for one don't see the problem with that so long as safety is not compromised.
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commercial airports give priority to the higher paying customers
Besides which - don't know of many commercial operators who pay tax on their fuel!
Upto The Buffers
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Interestingly, I heard a tower controller tell an aircraft on short final to go around just yesterday.
"G-xx. Go around, I say again, go around. Early right turn as height and speed permit".
As far as late requests go, I think that's about the best choice of words.
"G-xx. Go around, I say again, go around. Early right turn as height and speed permit".
As far as late requests go, I think that's about the best choice of words.
But they are doing it at the expense of safety.
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Quote:
2. Instigating a go around from 400 ft agl in a small light is no big deal.
It is more of a deal if you have a faster aircraft breathing up your @r$e, so close to you that it is the reason for you going around. As I asked previously what would happen if it had to go-around as well? Hardly an ideal situation.
2. Instigating a go around from 400 ft agl in a small light is no big deal.
It is more of a deal if you have a faster aircraft breathing up your @r$e, so close to you that it is the reason for you going around. As I asked previously what would happen if it had to go-around as well? Hardly an ideal situation.
You will find as you graduate through your flight training, this is an everyday event.
The Wombat
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DX, I wasn't referring to your go-around, which is a perfectly normal situation, it was your contention that it was OK to orbit at low level off of an approach which IMHO is not normal, dangerous and only appropriate to an emergency situation.
On a good day, I like to think I can make my aircraft dance in the skies, but there are plenty of bad ones too, particularly if I have been busy at work and haven't flown for a while.
In SE Asia (again), I once had to break off an ILS approach just after the Final Approach Fix and navigate to the hold due to a heavy thunderstorm passing over the airfield that approach chose not to tell me about, but tower did when I called up. I cleaned up (I thought) added power, engaged autopilot, dialled in pitch for appropriate climb at power setting, turned away from the airfield and storm and started to programme my 430's in bumpy cloud. I felt the aircraft wallow a bit and checked the yaw damper was engaged, which it was, looked back at the primary instruments, and speed had decayed to 20kts below VYSE and 10kts above stall. Quick check, somehow I had forgotten to raise the gear and flap, but had set power and programmed the A/P for pitch rate appropriate for cruise climb.
So despite being reasonably experienced and very current at the time, I wasn't prepared for the non-standard break off from the ILS, (didn't fancy the missed approach route through the middle of the thunderstorm), and distracted about the location of a military C130 that had broken off ahead of me on the ILS, and a tower with no radar asking for position reports from both of us. As a result I came very close to inadvertently stalling out in IMC with A/P engaged, which is a far from healthy situation.
So DX, its not only 16 year old students that make obvious mistakes when things change against expectations, I would imagine a good proportion of the GA community would have their own stories to tell. Even you might not be immune from moments of poor judgement as may be apparent when you refer to D&D trying to get you back to Duxford. So reading between the lines, lost (or do you find using D&D cheaper than buying a GPS), distracted, possibly bad weather and you give away a perfectly good runway in front of you to make a low level manouevre from which their would be no recovery if you screwed it up, instead of landing, having a coffee, re-planning and then continuing if conditions are good.
But to concur with Wombat13, a straightforward go-around is not an unexpected situation. At any time on the approach, even at 50ft over the keys, a good pilot should have it in mind that they should have to do so, and the manouevre is well practiced and safe. Low level turns in that situation in landing configuration are definately not safe.
On a good day, I like to think I can make my aircraft dance in the skies, but there are plenty of bad ones too, particularly if I have been busy at work and haven't flown for a while.
In SE Asia (again), I once had to break off an ILS approach just after the Final Approach Fix and navigate to the hold due to a heavy thunderstorm passing over the airfield that approach chose not to tell me about, but tower did when I called up. I cleaned up (I thought) added power, engaged autopilot, dialled in pitch for appropriate climb at power setting, turned away from the airfield and storm and started to programme my 430's in bumpy cloud. I felt the aircraft wallow a bit and checked the yaw damper was engaged, which it was, looked back at the primary instruments, and speed had decayed to 20kts below VYSE and 10kts above stall. Quick check, somehow I had forgotten to raise the gear and flap, but had set power and programmed the A/P for pitch rate appropriate for cruise climb.
So despite being reasonably experienced and very current at the time, I wasn't prepared for the non-standard break off from the ILS, (didn't fancy the missed approach route through the middle of the thunderstorm), and distracted about the location of a military C130 that had broken off ahead of me on the ILS, and a tower with no radar asking for position reports from both of us. As a result I came very close to inadvertently stalling out in IMC with A/P engaged, which is a far from healthy situation.
So DX, its not only 16 year old students that make obvious mistakes when things change against expectations, I would imagine a good proportion of the GA community would have their own stories to tell. Even you might not be immune from moments of poor judgement as may be apparent when you refer to D&D trying to get you back to Duxford. So reading between the lines, lost (or do you find using D&D cheaper than buying a GPS), distracted, possibly bad weather and you give away a perfectly good runway in front of you to make a low level manouevre from which their would be no recovery if you screwed it up, instead of landing, having a coffee, re-planning and then continuing if conditions are good.
But to concur with Wombat13, a straightforward go-around is not an unexpected situation. At any time on the approach, even at 50ft over the keys, a good pilot should have it in mind that they should have to do so, and the manouevre is well practiced and safe. Low level turns in that situation in landing configuration are definately not safe.
Last edited by rmac; 15th Aug 2007 at 08:31.
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You will find as you graduate through your flight training, this is an everyday event.
This kind of alarmist nonsense does not help.
In the scenario you describe, the following aircraft and ATC will take care of separation.