Joining on long final...... why?
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Joining on long final...... why?
Runway in use is 07.
Air/ground radio - manned.
Traffic inbound from both east and west, some high performance, some medium, some low.
Two aircraft (dissimilar types) want to join long final. A seven mile final for 07!
Why do people insist on joining long final, it really buggers up circuit traffic?
From being rightfully #1 to land to being cut up on final by two long-finalists really made my day today.
A serious lack of airmanship and spatial awareness. Whatever happened to tight circuits? Today's circuits were longer than some of my cross-country's!
Oh - and formation means more than one aircraft!
Air/ground radio - manned.
Traffic inbound from both east and west, some high performance, some medium, some low.
Two aircraft (dissimilar types) want to join long final. A seven mile final for 07!
Why do people insist on joining long final, it really buggers up circuit traffic?
From being rightfully #1 to land to being cut up on final by two long-finalists really made my day today.
A serious lack of airmanship and spatial awareness. Whatever happened to tight circuits? Today's circuits were longer than some of my cross-country's!
Oh - and formation means more than one aircraft!
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Take a chill pill, relax; savour the moment; after all you are airborne.
Extend downwind and think what a nice time you are having.
Have to sympathise a little though, overhead joins are a lot more considerate for the majority of GA, fast movers / rich mans toys being an exception.
Flipside: They may have been learners, and everyone has been there once upon a time. Respect and consideration should be mutual.
PS
7 miles away is not my definition of 'long final', and hereabouts that puts you in a differant county, at Welshpool it puts you in a differant country!
Extend downwind and think what a nice time you are having.
Have to sympathise a little though, overhead joins are a lot more considerate for the majority of GA, fast movers / rich mans toys being an exception.
Flipside: They may have been learners, and everyone has been there once upon a time. Respect and consideration should be mutual.
PS
7 miles away is not my definition of 'long final', and hereabouts that puts you in a differant county, at Welshpool it puts you in a differant country!
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Straight in
It would be great to think that all joins and circuits would be confined to the ATZ (if one exists) or a similar amount of airspace if no ATZ. After all thats the purpose of the ATZ -for the protection of traffic within, and circuit flying should be taught as such, unless noise abatement reasons make "standard" circuit a no-no.
This used to be normal practise, and often non radio. Aircraft have become easier to fly, so whats changed ?
( Long final - between 4 and 8 miles )
This used to be normal practise, and often non radio. Aircraft have become easier to fly, so whats changed ?
( Long final - between 4 and 8 miles )
You'll probably find that the pilot was also an airliner driver, and had forgotten the normal technique for joining the visual circuit.
I was Duty Bod in the tower at Benson once. 4 Bloggses solo in their Bulldogs in the circuit, when someone in a corgi-carrier (no royal on board) announces he is positioning for a straight-in visual join.
"Tell the bugger to join through initials with 4 in ahead", I told the local controller. "But..but...it's the Queen's Flight", spluttered the controller.
"I don't care who he is - the Flying Order Book does not include priority for visual straight-in joins. He can either break off and position for an instrument approach, or fit in with the visual circuit traffic. His choice!".
After being somewhat surpirsed at the instruction, the corgi-carrier duly joined through initials, then completed a tidy run-in-and-break in his BAe146. Later he mentioned the event to the CFI. "Serves you bloody right", said the CFI, "Suggest you read the FOB in future!"
I was Duty Bod in the tower at Benson once. 4 Bloggses solo in their Bulldogs in the circuit, when someone in a corgi-carrier (no royal on board) announces he is positioning for a straight-in visual join.
"Tell the bugger to join through initials with 4 in ahead", I told the local controller. "But..but...it's the Queen's Flight", spluttered the controller.
"I don't care who he is - the Flying Order Book does not include priority for visual straight-in joins. He can either break off and position for an instrument approach, or fit in with the visual circuit traffic. His choice!".
After being somewhat surpirsed at the instruction, the corgi-carrier duly joined through initials, then completed a tidy run-in-and-break in his BAe146. Later he mentioned the event to the CFI. "Serves you bloody right", said the CFI, "Suggest you read the FOB in future!"
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Nothing wrong with joining long final if traffic permits - and F3Gs comment applies!
If they can't do that then they should not be joining straight in.
Straight in traffic must give way to circuit traffic.
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G-EMMA, its discourteous to do this, but with A/G its up to the pilots to sort things out. If you were on base and Mr Long final nipped in front of you then that is poor airmanship and not following the rules.
If it was good VFR and you could both see each other it probably wasn't unsafe
However I'm sure it was good training in being able to deal with a situation that is not normal and that is valuable. You will come across things like this and being able to deal with them is part of being a good pilot.
If it was me I would have said something on the radio and later when the other pilot was on the ground.
I once did the same when landing at an airfield that was A/G. I was on long final and the A/G told me the runway in use and did not mention any traffic. They also said OK when I said straight in on a long final. It was only when I got to 500ft and 1 mile final that I heard a twin announce he was turning final. I hadn't seen or heard him. I couldn't see him but knew he was behind me somewhere so I landed and vacated quickly. He went around and then left for somewhere else. It was a genuine mistake on my part and I would have apologised had I had the chance. Maybe I shouldn't have just come in on a long final, but to join the pattern would have meant flying a circle around the airfield as I was approaching from a 20 mile final, it was early morning and I thought I was alone.
If it was good VFR and you could both see each other it probably wasn't unsafe
However I'm sure it was good training in being able to deal with a situation that is not normal and that is valuable. You will come across things like this and being able to deal with them is part of being a good pilot.
If it was me I would have said something on the radio and later when the other pilot was on the ground.
I once did the same when landing at an airfield that was A/G. I was on long final and the A/G told me the runway in use and did not mention any traffic. They also said OK when I said straight in on a long final. It was only when I got to 500ft and 1 mile final that I heard a twin announce he was turning final. I hadn't seen or heard him. I couldn't see him but knew he was behind me somewhere so I landed and vacated quickly. He went around and then left for somewhere else. It was a genuine mistake on my part and I would have apologised had I had the chance. Maybe I shouldn't have just come in on a long final, but to join the pattern would have meant flying a circle around the airfield as I was approaching from a 20 mile final, it was early morning and I thought I was alone.
I guess I'm missing something here. Are you saying that in the UK, once someone is lined up with the runway, you can't turn base in front of them?
It happens all the time here. At Livermore there's often someone on a long straight in and they'll turn pattern traffic in front of them as long as they're far enough away.
Reminds me of when I flew out of Biarritz a few months ago and they held us for takeoff for a plane that wasn't even visible, which meant several minutes holding instead of just taking off in front of them. If they tried that at Palo Alto, throughput would drop to a tenth.
n5296s
It happens all the time here. At Livermore there's often someone on a long straight in and they'll turn pattern traffic in front of them as long as they're far enough away.
Reminds me of when I flew out of Biarritz a few months ago and they held us for takeoff for a plane that wasn't even visible, which meant several minutes holding instead of just taking off in front of them. If they tried that at Palo Alto, throughput would drop to a tenth.
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n5296s, I think its the other way round. Someone on long final should give way to someone in the circuit on base. Especially if there is no ATC, just A/G which is really just advice on runway, wind etc.
I expect this was because it was a French aircraft and you were English/British/American.... std practise by the French I think!!!!
Reminds me of when I flew out of Biarritz a few months ago and they held us for takeoff for a plane that wasn't even visible, which meant several minutes holding instead of just taking off in front of them.
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T-M: I'm so chilled that I didn't even seek him out on the ground to remonstrate! Yep, I was up there, but I am quite a lot, so the novelty of being dicked around by the badly trained has worn off!
Well trained/briefed newbies (and they do exist) would never have been so thoughtless/stupid/ego-centric.
The point being that neither of the wallies understood that they DID NOT have priority - both were down in the weeds (a la G-EMMA's post) and having gently suggested that "it might just be my turn to land", neither took any heed of this and bored on in.
The first driver (for he certainly wasn't a pilot) had such poor spatial awareness that I just hope he made it home safely today and will continue to do so, despite his lack of SA and airmanship.
The second saw a trend occurring and jumped on the bandwagon!
I have had a super day of aviating, however if by promulgating the acts of a couple of clowns - makes every one else have a super and safer day in the future, then I feel that our tiny community can only benefit.
Stik
Well trained/briefed newbies (and they do exist) would never have been so thoughtless/stupid/ego-centric.
The point being that neither of the wallies understood that they DID NOT have priority - both were down in the weeds (a la G-EMMA's post) and having gently suggested that "it might just be my turn to land", neither took any heed of this and bored on in.
The first driver (for he certainly wasn't a pilot) had such poor spatial awareness that I just hope he made it home safely today and will continue to do so, despite his lack of SA and airmanship.
The second saw a trend occurring and jumped on the bandwagon!
I have had a super day of aviating, however if by promulgating the acts of a couple of clowns - makes every one else have a super and safer day in the future, then I feel that our tiny community can only benefit.
Stik
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A lot of people make duff position calls, unfortunately. Sometimes deliberately.
The other side of this debate is that there is nothing wrong with joining straight in if there isn't other traffic, but certain A/G controllers don't like this (especially at certain airfields where the A/G is done by the school CFI
) and try to push everybody into doing an overhead join, which is a complete waste of time.
I would ask for a traffic report and if he is not aware of traffic I would go straight in - keeping a lookout of course as one does anyway.
To many traditionally trained pilots, a straight in join is more difficult that flying a circuit to land, but anybody navigating using radio nav can position themselves correctly 3 nm out (often, at that point, without sight of the runway) and then descend onto the runway.
One tip, Gemma, is that if something has shaken you, fly away somewhere for 10 mins or whatever, calm down, then come back. Flight training is all about piling on the pressure (to the point where the student often cracks and the instructor has to take over) but you would never do that by choice when flying alone.
The other side of this debate is that there is nothing wrong with joining straight in if there isn't other traffic, but certain A/G controllers don't like this (especially at certain airfields where the A/G is done by the school CFI
) and try to push everybody into doing an overhead join, which is a complete waste of time. I would ask for a traffic report and if he is not aware of traffic I would go straight in - keeping a lookout of course as one does anyway.
To many traditionally trained pilots, a straight in join is more difficult that flying a circuit to land, but anybody navigating using radio nav can position themselves correctly 3 nm out (often, at that point, without sight of the runway) and then descend onto the runway.
One tip, Gemma, is that if something has shaken you, fly away somewhere for 10 mins or whatever, calm down, then come back. Flight training is all about piling on the pressure (to the point where the student often cracks and the instructor has to take over) but you would never do that by choice when flying alone.
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Straight in traffic must give way to circuit traffic
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IO540 - I totally agree, a straight in approach is fine IF THERE IS NO CIRCUIT TRAFFIC.
I do it all the time at home, cuts down on time and avoids the noise caused by a/c droning around a circuit.
I do it all the time at home, cuts down on time and avoids the noise caused by a/c droning around a circuit.
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I joined on base the other day (for a 07). Another aeroplane inbound from Bournemouth got on the radio and said "are we allowed to join on base?"....I think having a dig at me. The A/G op affirmed. I was hoping he'd come and find me to remonstrate
However if they had bothered to check up on airfield procedures, a base leg, or straight in join is prefered due to noise abaitment. In fact MANY airfield have "non standard" procedures. Try doing an overhead join at Old Sarum on a weekday and you'll meet a Eurofighter coming the other way....
Also many ATC fields don't care if you do a straight in. Last time I went to Lands End ATC said "you can either do an overhead join or a straight in join". I opted for the straight in as it saves messing around in the most dangerous place in the sky (overhead an airfield, where most midairs occur).
I don't really care about "who is first" and don't suffer from air rage. If I have to give way so we don't collide then fine.
However if they had bothered to check up on airfield procedures, a base leg, or straight in join is prefered due to noise abaitment. In fact MANY airfield have "non standard" procedures. Try doing an overhead join at Old Sarum on a weekday and you'll meet a Eurofighter coming the other way....
Also many ATC fields don't care if you do a straight in. Last time I went to Lands End ATC said "you can either do an overhead join or a straight in join". I opted for the straight in as it saves messing around in the most dangerous place in the sky (overhead an airfield, where most midairs occur).
I don't really care about "who is first" and don't suffer from air rage. If I have to give way so we don't collide then fine.
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>>I don't really care about "who is first" and don't suffer from air rage. If I have to give way so we don't collide then fine.<<<
Nice attitude. I wish others took that line.
Over the past weeks (and I assume this is because people are out of practice), we've had stand-up rows with other pilots whose airmanship on joining is lacking.
Just because you are in a particular part of the circuit, it does not guarantee that you won't be cut up. One or two of said pilots seem to assume that a/g airfields actually sequence landings.
Try Popham on an event day. It's great for practicing go-rounds.
Oh, and if someone does call long finals at our field, they are advised to give way to circuit traffic.
Nice attitude. I wish others took that line.
Over the past weeks (and I assume this is because people are out of practice), we've had stand-up rows with other pilots whose airmanship on joining is lacking.
Just because you are in a particular part of the circuit, it does not guarantee that you won't be cut up. One or two of said pilots seem to assume that a/g airfields actually sequence landings.
Try Popham on an event day. It's great for practicing go-rounds.
Oh, and if someone does call long finals at our field, they are advised to give way to circuit traffic.
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Long Final is 4 to 8 miles, and joining this way is part of normal aviation procedure, unless not allowed at that particular airfield. But you are not in the circuit, so circuit traffic has priority...which shouldn't matter, because you're so far out anyway.
When I learned to fly at Welshpool we joined on long final all the time if approaching from the North when runway 22 was being used. It would have been crazy not to. You would be flying down between the hills, and there was the runway several miles ahead of you. Why would you climb way above the hills in order to join overhead, do a circuit, and come down again?
Like anything else in aviation, joining on long final works fine if people know what they're doing. And also like everything else in aviation, it doesn't work if they don't.
G-EMMA, I sympathise, but eventually you'll have to learn not to get flummoxed by what other people are doing. And eventually (soon!) you will.
When I learned to fly at Welshpool we joined on long final all the time if approaching from the North when runway 22 was being used. It would have been crazy not to. You would be flying down between the hills, and there was the runway several miles ahead of you. Why would you climb way above the hills in order to join overhead, do a circuit, and come down again?
Like anything else in aviation, joining on long final works fine if people know what they're doing. And also like everything else in aviation, it doesn't work if they don't.
G-EMMA, I sympathise, but eventually you'll have to learn not to get flummoxed by what other people are doing. And eventually (soon!) you will.
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I do remember when I was training. It always felt as if I hadn't quite mastered something before moving on. However if we went back to that particular exercise later it always seemed easy. I think this is the sign of a good instructor, to push you on at a pace which they assess you can take. To the student, this will always seem as if you are behind the curve. I do think this is the correct way, otherwise you will spend a lot more time on your training.
So, G-EMMA, it sounds like your instructor did the right thing and let you handle the situation rather than just taking over the controls. Maybe you didn't handle it perfectly, but there was no midair, you landed with no damage or injury ...and you learnt a lot. So all in all it was a valuable experience, even if the other pilot was at best discourteous.
You were outside your comfort zone, but will now know what to do if something similar occurs again....and yes, you should speak with the other pilot if you see him/her in the clubhouse.
So, G-EMMA, it sounds like your instructor did the right thing and let you handle the situation rather than just taking over the controls. Maybe you didn't handle it perfectly, but there was no midair, you landed with no damage or injury ...and you learnt a lot. So all in all it was a valuable experience, even if the other pilot was at best discourteous.
You were outside your comfort zone, but will now know what to do if something similar occurs again....and yes, you should speak with the other pilot if you see him/her in the clubhouse.
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Don't forget here I had called downwind so if he was on our frequency he should have known I was in the circuit
Last edited by foxmoth; 11th Aug 2007 at 21:34.
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I join on long finals when I can, sometimes adding that I'll give way to circuit traffic on my radio call (I do, regardless of whether I mention it). The main reason is that at £120/hr, not performing an overhead join can save me 6 minutes/£12/dinner!