Joining on long final...... why?
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Joining on long finals, why?
Because the overhead join is dangerous and antiquated and should be banned IMHO.
No reason why not to join on long final if the circuit is clear.
Just my opinion
SB
Because the overhead join is dangerous and antiquated and should be banned IMHO.
No reason why not to join on long final if the circuit is clear.
Just my opinion
SB
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by Scooter Boy
Because the overhead join is dangerous and antiquated and should be banned IMHO.
I suggest that we ban the latter, rather than the former.
Just my opinion, you understand.
Rather surprised that nobody has mentioned Rule 16 of the Rules of the Air - aircraft shall conform to the pattern formed by other aircraft etc,
Also landing priority - when two aircraft are approaching to land the lower has priority....except that you should not cut in front of an aircraft which is already established on final. (emergencies excepted).
What worries me are the aircraft that call an A/G and ask things like "Am I clear to join left base, straight in etc?" - they dont seem to understand that A/G cannot issue such a clearance.
As for the overhead join - subject to any local noise abatement - there is no problem with this so long as pilots know how to fly it and is indeed the correct way of joining the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome (my comments relate to UK only - our cousins elsewhere have their own way of doing things!).
Also notwithstanding basic airmanship if you are in the ATZ and someone joins "Long Final" then they are OUTSIDE the ATZ so you are quite entitled to turn in ahead of them!
At times I am quite appalled at some of the circuit discipline (or lack of it) which is displayed by some (usually visiting) pilots.
Also landing priority - when two aircraft are approaching to land the lower has priority....except that you should not cut in front of an aircraft which is already established on final. (emergencies excepted).
What worries me are the aircraft that call an A/G and ask things like "Am I clear to join left base, straight in etc?" - they dont seem to understand that A/G cannot issue such a clearance.
As for the overhead join - subject to any local noise abatement - there is no problem with this so long as pilots know how to fly it and is indeed the correct way of joining the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome (my comments relate to UK only - our cousins elsewhere have their own way of doing things!).
Also notwithstanding basic airmanship if you are in the ATZ and someone joins "Long Final" then they are OUTSIDE the ATZ so you are quite entitled to turn in ahead of them!
At times I am quite appalled at some of the circuit discipline (or lack of it) which is displayed by some (usually visiting) pilots.
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FireflyBob, I agree with you. One of the reasons why many try to join Long Final or by establishing on an Extended Base or Downwind Leg is that so many are ignorant of, unpracticed at or just plain frightened of the Standard Overhead Join.
Despite assertions to the contrary, the Standard Overhead Join is a safe and long-established method of joining a conventional small airfield circuit and it works for radio and non-radio. If only it was emphasised in training and used more at GA airfields, the circuit would be a safer place.
I know there are often reasons why a "level join" is mandated (CAS overhead, no "dead side", etc) but in the general case the SOJ is not only adequate but should be the preferred normal option.
As you say, the other principle so often ignored - and which would make the circuit safer for all - is Rule 12, which requires all turns in the ATZ to be made in the direction of the traffic pattern (i.e circuit direction).
Basic training is lacking, I think, in not emphasising both these essentials.
JD
Despite assertions to the contrary, the Standard Overhead Join is a safe and long-established method of joining a conventional small airfield circuit and it works for radio and non-radio. If only it was emphasised in training and used more at GA airfields, the circuit would be a safer place.
I know there are often reasons why a "level join" is mandated (CAS overhead, no "dead side", etc) but in the general case the SOJ is not only adequate but should be the preferred normal option.
As you say, the other principle so often ignored - and which would make the circuit safer for all - is Rule 12, which requires all turns in the ATZ to be made in the direction of the traffic pattern (i.e circuit direction).
Basic training is lacking, I think, in not emphasising both these essentials.
JD
Last edited by Jumbo Driver; 12th Aug 2007 at 09:31. Reason: correction to "Finals" to avoid criticism by Chilli Monster ...
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wind
No-one has yet mentioned observing the windsock.
Thats one very good reason to join o/h. It's sometimes a mistake to think that the wind at the point of departure is what you'll find at the destination.
Thats one very good reason to join o/h. It's sometimes a mistake to think that the wind at the point of departure is what you'll find at the destination.
Avoid imitations
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These days I only fly rotary but am quite happy to join by any safe method, including from overhead.
At some airfields, due to the huge bomber circuits routinely taught and flown (very often outside the ATZ before the end of downwind) it's sometimes difficult when joining to work out who is actually in the circuit and who is just passing by! I was taught to keep the aircraft in a position where it could make the airfield in the event of engine failure (and later taught the same to others). These days, some people should be doing rejoin checks before turning base leg.......
At some airfields, due to the huge bomber circuits routinely taught and flown (very often outside the ATZ before the end of downwind) it's sometimes difficult when joining to work out who is actually in the circuit and who is just passing by! I was taught to keep the aircraft in a position where it could make the airfield in the event of engine failure (and later taught the same to others). These days, some people should be doing rejoin checks before turning base leg.......
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Hiya, Stik,
(got your gloves, by the way, so Oshkosh wasn't a total loss!)
When people call long final like that, especially when it's a busy circuit, I look at it as a warning shot that they're coming in rather than laying claim to the runway. I also suspect that as they get closer, people will either make way or the long-final will end up going around. No real problem either way. If they're far enough out, I carry on with my circuit as normal and cut in front, provided I can do it safely (and, let's face it, in a Pitts we can get two circuits in before we can even see "Mr. Longfinal's" landing lights). This happens every once in a while at Popham and it's never been a problem that I know of. I actually think it's kind of a courtesy call by either a complex type coming in in the simplest way or someone who's approaching on runway heading and it's just easier for all concerned if they just come straight in. In the Tcraft I've been known to do straight-in approaches, but obviously in the Pitts I don't.
On the matter of the overhead join, I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Why is it any more dangerous than everyone joining midfield downwind as in the States? You still have every aircraft converging on one point, so what difference does it make where the point is? I prefer the SOJ as it gives me a chance to get some SA on the field to plan my approach, as well as have a good lookout for other traffic, especially non-radio stuff.
Here in the UK I routinely join overhead, midfield downwind, base leg and even straight in depending on how I'm approaching a field and what's already going on there. If it's done with respect for what's going on in the circuit already, it's not ever a problem. On a busy day, I stick to the SOJ for the reasons stated above. If it's a slow circuit, I'll join in any of the other ways, making sure I can be seen and announce clearly what I'm doing, and making sure I don't put anyone out who's already established in the circuit.
I wonder if yachties moan about the lack of seamanship in every other sailor on the water the way we seem to moan about the lack of airmanship in everyone esle in the air. We really need to just get on with the business of flying for fun and stop trying to police everyone else. There are times I think we don't need the Belgrano as there are plenty of self-appointed "deputy examiners" out there willing to pull people up for minor infractions of the ANO.
Just fly and have fun, fer Chr!st's sake!! (this bit not directed at you, Stik)
Pitts2112
(got your gloves, by the way, so Oshkosh wasn't a total loss!)
When people call long final like that, especially when it's a busy circuit, I look at it as a warning shot that they're coming in rather than laying claim to the runway. I also suspect that as they get closer, people will either make way or the long-final will end up going around. No real problem either way. If they're far enough out, I carry on with my circuit as normal and cut in front, provided I can do it safely (and, let's face it, in a Pitts we can get two circuits in before we can even see "Mr. Longfinal's" landing lights). This happens every once in a while at Popham and it's never been a problem that I know of. I actually think it's kind of a courtesy call by either a complex type coming in in the simplest way or someone who's approaching on runway heading and it's just easier for all concerned if they just come straight in. In the Tcraft I've been known to do straight-in approaches, but obviously in the Pitts I don't.
On the matter of the overhead join, I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Why is it any more dangerous than everyone joining midfield downwind as in the States? You still have every aircraft converging on one point, so what difference does it make where the point is? I prefer the SOJ as it gives me a chance to get some SA on the field to plan my approach, as well as have a good lookout for other traffic, especially non-radio stuff.
Here in the UK I routinely join overhead, midfield downwind, base leg and even straight in depending on how I'm approaching a field and what's already going on there. If it's done with respect for what's going on in the circuit already, it's not ever a problem. On a busy day, I stick to the SOJ for the reasons stated above. If it's a slow circuit, I'll join in any of the other ways, making sure I can be seen and announce clearly what I'm doing, and making sure I don't put anyone out who's already established in the circuit.
I wonder if yachties moan about the lack of seamanship in every other sailor on the water the way we seem to moan about the lack of airmanship in everyone esle in the air. We really need to just get on with the business of flying for fun and stop trying to police everyone else. There are times I think we don't need the Belgrano as there are plenty of self-appointed "deputy examiners" out there willing to pull people up for minor infractions of the ANO.
Just fly and have fun, fer Chr!st's sake!!
(this bit not directed at you, Stik)Pitts2112
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It transpires (through PM) that the miscreant was a student pilot on a x-country.
It just reinforces my comment about his poor standard of training.
I'm not the "fun-police" and I have £ucked up in my time (and will probably do so again!) but there is a right way of doing things and if we all do things the right way, then the skies will be safer and more fun for the majority!
Oh - the gloves that 2112 refers to are gardening gloves, not flying ones!!
It just reinforces my comment about his poor standard of training.
I'm not the "fun-police" and I have £ucked up in my time (and will probably do so again!) but there is a right way of doing things and if we all do things the right way, then the skies will be safer and more fun for the majority!
Oh - the gloves that 2112 refers to are gardening gloves, not flying ones!!
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I went to the Piper day at Duxford yesterday:
I was approaching the runway in use (24) from the NE exactly on runway heading. I tuned to Duxford Info 15 miles out once Lakenheath had dumped me to hear that the circuit was frantically busy.
At 10 miles I called and asked if there was any chance of a straight-in to 24: (principally because, since there are no overhead/deadside joins at Duxford, to join downwind would have meant flying past the airfield to the south outside the circuit and perilously close to Stansted's zone and doing a 180 and joining downwind: a good 5-8 mins extra flying.
As it happened I was asked to report 4,and 2 miles to run, by which time the circuit was clear and I got my straight in (thanks Alan).
Now if the circuit had been busy I would willingly have joined downwind, so if you don't ask you don't get even if initially the circuit appears busy.
Safe flying
Cusco.
I was approaching the runway in use (24) from the NE exactly on runway heading. I tuned to Duxford Info 15 miles out once Lakenheath had dumped me to hear that the circuit was frantically busy.
At 10 miles I called and asked if there was any chance of a straight-in to 24: (principally because, since there are no overhead/deadside joins at Duxford, to join downwind would have meant flying past the airfield to the south outside the circuit and perilously close to Stansted's zone and doing a 180 and joining downwind: a good 5-8 mins extra flying.
As it happened I was asked to report 4,and 2 miles to run, by which time the circuit was clear and I got my straight in (thanks Alan).
Now if the circuit had been busy I would willingly have joined downwind, so if you don't ask you don't get even if initially the circuit appears busy.
Safe flying
Cusco.
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Runway 07?
The only one I know round here is Old Buckenham,where the standard of training is very high.
But there may be others of course.
I use long finals quite often,I listen to traffic and request long final,sometimes you may have to hang around for a short time but if you are in position it beats a really long circuit as exists at some placed due to noise control etc.
Experienced yachties get pi**ed off with knowalls,daredevils and bulls**ters just the same as in aviation.
What is amazing is you can buy an £x million motor boat that does 30 knots and drive off without a licence,sometimes drunk.
I think the last bit is now being looked at by HM Gov.
Have fun!
Lister
The only one I know round here is Old Buckenham,where the standard of training is very high.
But there may be others of course.
I use long finals quite often,I listen to traffic and request long final,sometimes you may have to hang around for a short time but if you are in position it beats a really long circuit as exists at some placed due to noise control etc.
Experienced yachties get pi**ed off with knowalls,daredevils and bulls**ters just the same as in aviation.
What is amazing is you can buy an £x million motor boat that does 30 knots and drive off without a licence,sometimes drunk.
I think the last bit is now being looked at by HM Gov.
Have fun!
Lister
)
I also get very annoyed by people doing straight-in approaches at uncontrolled airfields; especially when they aren't aware that they have to give way to circuit traffic, or claim not to have seen anyone on base leg.
An OHJ is certainly the default, but I don't know why more people don't get taught about IP joins. If approaching in the runway direction it's so easy to arrange to fly just to the deadside of the runway and then to turn onto downwind at an appropriate point (usually over the upwind numbers). It also helps with descent and energy management so why isn't it in the standard text books?
HFD
An OHJ is certainly the default, but I don't know why more people don't get taught about IP joins. If approaching in the runway direction it's so easy to arrange to fly just to the deadside of the runway and then to turn onto downwind at an appropriate point (usually over the upwind numbers). It also helps with descent and energy management so why isn't it in the standard text books?
HFD
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Joining on long final
At an uncontrolled airfield, if a straight-in approach seems useful, and there's traffic in the circuit, my radio call is - "G**** joining long final, two in sight downwind", eg.
(lets them know I've seen them)
WS
(lets them know I've seen them)
WS
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Top marks for stupidity must go to the visiting Cherokee driver yesterday who blasted his way into the circuit at Warp factor 5, turning finals inside at least another 3 aircraft positioned correctly on the approach, only to have to go around and do it all over again 'cos he was too high.
Remember, a good landing results from a good approach, which results from a good circuit....
And even worse are the to$$ers who call "lining up" and then pull onto the runway in front of landing traffic without even a glance to see if anything is coming, only to faff around on the runway and cause aircraft to go around.
Grrrrrrr
Remember, a good landing results from a good approach, which results from a good circuit....
And even worse are the to$$ers who call "lining up" and then pull onto the runway in front of landing traffic without even a glance to see if anything is coming, only to faff around on the runway and cause aircraft to go around.
Grrrrrrr