Where would you train?
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Where would you train?
Hi guy and Girls,
First post on here so be gentle, although been in the background for a long time.
Right I am a avaition junkie since birth (first toy was a tomy "my first plane").
I am looking to commit to my PPl after years of never finding. Once I would have considered a flying career but now just reacreational with a final goal to specialise in Aero's at competition level.
Right enough pointless thread...I live in NW kent and have Biggin only 7 miles away. Problem is Biggin seems so expensive. I have looked at a few schools and been up with CABAIR in a PA28. However CABAIR seem to be very overpriced. The 0-50 pack with a total repayable of £10,800 on a PA28 seems steep although it is 50 hours with 55 landing fees. I realise a number of you on here will have either trained in the area or are QFI's. I relaise this is subjective to taste but any recomedations would be greatfully accepted. I have been advised that I should only go CABAIR should I in the future with to interview with the airlines. Rochester is a possibility but if allI am saving is £11 per full stop I will probably have an extra couple of quid in the car and 1 hour on return on the M25 I will stay at biggin. I constnaly see around £5700/6700 for C152/PA28 but what is the real cost i.e. how uverpriced is the CABAIR 0-50 0% interest deal? And if you had to start today and lived in Kent where and who would you train with and why. Personal experiences welcome as are QFI's selling the schools.
Thanks in Advance...
First post on here so be gentle, although been in the background for a long time.
Right I am a avaition junkie since birth (first toy was a tomy "my first plane").
I am looking to commit to my PPl after years of never finding. Once I would have considered a flying career but now just reacreational with a final goal to specialise in Aero's at competition level.
Right enough pointless thread...I live in NW kent and have Biggin only 7 miles away. Problem is Biggin seems so expensive. I have looked at a few schools and been up with CABAIR in a PA28. However CABAIR seem to be very overpriced. The 0-50 pack with a total repayable of £10,800 on a PA28 seems steep although it is 50 hours with 55 landing fees. I realise a number of you on here will have either trained in the area or are QFI's. I relaise this is subjective to taste but any recomedations would be greatfully accepted. I have been advised that I should only go CABAIR should I in the future with to interview with the airlines. Rochester is a possibility but if allI am saving is £11 per full stop I will probably have an extra couple of quid in the car and 1 hour on return on the M25 I will stay at biggin. I constnaly see around £5700/6700 for C152/PA28 but what is the real cost i.e. how uverpriced is the CABAIR 0-50 0% interest deal? And if you had to start today and lived in Kent where and who would you train with and why. Personal experiences welcome as are QFI's selling the schools.
Thanks in Advance...
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Don't have any local knowledge but:
DO NOT PAY FOR THE ENTIRE COURSE IN ADVANCE!
Too many people have come unstuck where flying schools go bust after student has paid up front.
Result: lots of tears on part of student.
DO NOT PAY FOR THE ENTIRE COURSE IN ADVANCE!
Too many people have come unstuck where flying schools go bust after student has paid up front.
Result: lots of tears on part of student.
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Who ever told you stay with Cabair because of possible interviews in the future with airlines, in my opinion is not good advice. For your PPL chose a school you find you like. Airlines really look at your more advance training. The would rather hear from you in the interview i chose this school for my PPL because they suited me more than others, friendly etc rather than I chose Cabair cause I thought it would sound better on my CV. Don’t get me wrong i am not putting Cabair down I am just saying open your mind a bit more to other schools and you may find a better price. In the end of the day a good flying school will get you a PPL and a PPL is a PPL.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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Hi Bravo-Papa,
I fly out of Biggin.
The airfield is relatively expensive to operate from, and yes, Cabair are expensive too.
I learned with Cabair at both Redhill and Biggin.
Although Cabair Redhill is now defunct.
What you need to watch at Cabair (other establishments may be similar, but Cabair is the only one I have trained at and am thus qualified to comment); is that you may get a really great instructor, or you may get a really crap one. And your learning experience/time to test/wallet will benefit/suffer accordingly.
And it's not always easy to swap from bad instructor to good.
Wherever you go, try to find out which instructors are the busy ones - i.e. those that are held in high regard by the students.
Speak to them yourself - interview them. Don't just let yourself get assigned to one. And review after a few lessons if you feel ok with the one you have got.
Listen out to other students/their converstaions with their instructors on their way to/from the aircraft.
It's also good to have the odd lesson with another instructor - a different teaching style is refreshing - and they may pick up good/bad points about your flying.
Redhill is much cheaper than Biggin (although occasionaly it gets waterlogged) and there is another operator on the site (can't remember the name but its on the cafe site). Try there.
I am not convinced about going to US, particularly if you are going to be flying in the home counties.
The weather is completely different, and you will need to understand the busy and restricted airspace restrictions - neither are something you can pick up in the US.
I wouldent have wished to take my early post-test steps in airspace with which I was unfamiliar.
And other contributers are absolutely right - NEVER pay for a course up front - however good the deal seems!
Hope that helps.
I fly out of Biggin.
The airfield is relatively expensive to operate from, and yes, Cabair are expensive too.
I learned with Cabair at both Redhill and Biggin.
Although Cabair Redhill is now defunct.
What you need to watch at Cabair (other establishments may be similar, but Cabair is the only one I have trained at and am thus qualified to comment); is that you may get a really great instructor, or you may get a really crap one. And your learning experience/time to test/wallet will benefit/suffer accordingly.
And it's not always easy to swap from bad instructor to good.
Wherever you go, try to find out which instructors are the busy ones - i.e. those that are held in high regard by the students.
Speak to them yourself - interview them. Don't just let yourself get assigned to one. And review after a few lessons if you feel ok with the one you have got.
Listen out to other students/their converstaions with their instructors on their way to/from the aircraft.
It's also good to have the odd lesson with another instructor - a different teaching style is refreshing - and they may pick up good/bad points about your flying.
Redhill is much cheaper than Biggin (although occasionaly it gets waterlogged) and there is another operator on the site (can't remember the name but its on the cafe site). Try there.
I am not convinced about going to US, particularly if you are going to be flying in the home counties.
The weather is completely different, and you will need to understand the busy and restricted airspace restrictions - neither are something you can pick up in the US.
I wouldent have wished to take my early post-test steps in airspace with which I was unfamiliar.
And other contributers are absolutely right - NEVER pay for a course up front - however good the deal seems!
Hope that helps.
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i am a new ppl student and looking at some prices as well. The package deals are really good most of the places i have been to. However why does everyone say don't pay up front for the package?
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Thank you everyone for the feedback...
Having spoken to the boss (wife) I think I will go pay as you go. So I will spend a little more but i agree it safer and more flexible should I wish to change schools etc. I also agee with the right instructor. It appear to me that mot of the instuctors at cabair are all on 2 year hour building deals all itching to get to the commercial/airline stuff. Think I will take the odd hour with the other schools on site and see how I get on. Also talking myself out of doing my PPL on a 152 and then doing a PA28 check out. Really enjoyes flying the PA although will be doing 5-6 hours over the next 2 month with a pal who is hour building in a 152 (AAC pilot that needs to keep PPL(A) should be fun watching him get a nose bleed above 100ft). Rochester/redhill and stapleford are possibilites (in that order). Hopefully I decide soon and start ASAP. If anyone here is currently training PPL or about to start at biggin would be great to hear from you and or have a beer/swap nte on who you may train with or what instructors are rated on the field.
As I expected a great response from this site, I hope to be able to conrtbute for many years....
Having spoken to the boss (wife) I think I will go pay as you go. So I will spend a little more but i agree it safer and more flexible should I wish to change schools etc. I also agee with the right instructor. It appear to me that mot of the instuctors at cabair are all on 2 year hour building deals all itching to get to the commercial/airline stuff. Think I will take the odd hour with the other schools on site and see how I get on. Also talking myself out of doing my PPL on a 152 and then doing a PA28 check out. Really enjoyes flying the PA although will be doing 5-6 hours over the next 2 month with a pal who is hour building in a 152 (AAC pilot that needs to keep PPL(A) should be fun watching him get a nose bleed above 100ft). Rochester/redhill and stapleford are possibilites (in that order). Hopefully I decide soon and start ASAP. If anyone here is currently training PPL or about to start at biggin would be great to hear from you and or have a beer/swap nte on who you may train with or what instructors are rated on the field.
As I expected a great response from this site, I hope to be able to conrtbute for many years....
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During my flight training I flew with quite a few instructors, at quite a number of different schools (in 3 countries), and a number of different aircraft types as well. Each instructor taught me something that the others didn't and the experience I gained from all the changes, I believe, made me a more competent and experienced pilot. I wouldn't change it if I had my time again.
I agree it's good to stick with one instructor at the early stages of training where continuity is more important, but how do you know how good an instructor is without comparing them to others? My opinion.
I agree it's good to stick with one instructor at the early stages of training where continuity is more important, but how do you know how good an instructor is without comparing them to others? My opinion.
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I think my way of getting my PPL was different from most. I decided I was going to "go for it" so took a month off and went into residence at Scone, joining the Scottish Aero Club which operated under the auspices of AST. I lived only just over an hour away but reckoned that immersing myself in the process would make me fly much more often, work harder on the ground studies and generally stand a better chance of getting through everything first time. Another advantage of somewhere like Scone was that my tight schedule would never be upset by unserviceability because they had around 30 C150s.
I was very lucky to get an instructor who suited me down to the ground. Gordon Lockhart (Gee to the many who will remember him) must have been in his early fifties but knew he was really only about eighteen so was great company in the evenings while I was sharing the accommodation with lots of East African Airlines trainees and not a few unfortunate Ugandan asian trainee ATCOs. Idi Amin was brutalising their families back home at the time.
I did about 80% of my dual flying with Gee and the rest with perhaps another three instructors. I found that they served more to confirm that Gee was doing a good job rather than to expose any weaknesses. I went solo in just under 10 hours and passed the GFT on the 30th. day. Gee was stamping up my log when he found I'd only done about 34 hours so a phantom flight was conjured up to get to 35! Quick thinking saved the day!
Gee has, sadly, since died so my exposé will cause him neither embarrassment nor problems now. I'd love to hear how his wife and son (little Gee!) are getting on.
My reason for relating this is that there may be some advantages to taking the time off to do what amounts to a crash (!) course because it can be fitted into an extended annual holiday. If I could do it in Scottish weather then think how much more possible it should be in Kent. OK, perhaps not this year!!
I was very lucky to get an instructor who suited me down to the ground. Gordon Lockhart (Gee to the many who will remember him) must have been in his early fifties but knew he was really only about eighteen so was great company in the evenings while I was sharing the accommodation with lots of East African Airlines trainees and not a few unfortunate Ugandan asian trainee ATCOs. Idi Amin was brutalising their families back home at the time.
I did about 80% of my dual flying with Gee and the rest with perhaps another three instructors. I found that they served more to confirm that Gee was doing a good job rather than to expose any weaknesses. I went solo in just under 10 hours and passed the GFT on the 30th. day. Gee was stamping up my log when he found I'd only done about 34 hours so a phantom flight was conjured up to get to 35! Quick thinking saved the day!
Gee has, sadly, since died so my exposé will cause him neither embarrassment nor problems now. I'd love to hear how his wife and son (little Gee!) are getting on.
My reason for relating this is that there may be some advantages to taking the time off to do what amounts to a crash (!) course because it can be fitted into an extended annual holiday. If I could do it in Scottish weather then think how much more possible it should be in Kent. OK, perhaps not this year!!
Pompey till I die
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Training at Biggin Hill
Whenever I read the METARs \ TAFs Biggin always appears to be the first to hit fog \ bad vis \ bad weather ?
Don't Biggin students get more cancelled flights, more so than surrounding area ?
Note I don't know this for sure, it's just something I've noticed...
Don't Biggin students get more cancelled flights, more so than surrounding area ?
Note I don't know this for sure, it's just something I've noticed...
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It's funny really, student pilots will put up with all sorts of crap that they would never consider in any other field of endeavor. Poorly maintained aircraft, bad instructors etc. During my training I put up with a verbally abusive instructor with an ego the size of a small country, eventually I walked away. Students MUST learn to be more demanding, I mean you're forking out a fortune to this company so they should provide you one main instructor who you're happy with and provide a level of service appropriate to the investment. They are not doing you a favour!
As for Cabair...I have to say that they are the most mercenary flying school I have ever come across and if given the chance will quite literally sell you the time of day. I would avoid them if at all possible. From friends of mine training at Elstree I hear about all sorts of crap that they put up with like never having the same instructor twice in a row.
If you don't mind a bit of travelling I would look further afield for a suitable school with which to train, don't limit your options because of convenience.
Phil
As for Cabair...I have to say that they are the most mercenary flying school I have ever come across and if given the chance will quite literally sell you the time of day. I would avoid them if at all possible. From friends of mine training at Elstree I hear about all sorts of crap that they put up with like never having the same instructor twice in a row.
If you don't mind a bit of travelling I would look further afield for a suitable school with which to train, don't limit your options because of convenience.
Phil
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Hey PB,
Having been an Instructor at both Old Sarum Flying Club and Cabair School of Flying Elstree, without doubt where you should learn to fly is at a flying Club!
The special atmosphere at a flying club, in my opinion, would suit your remit much better. Clubs are more about the fun and enjoyment of learning to fly - whilst being no less professional.
Now whilst OSFC is too far for you to travel (although there are some members that do!), I would look for something similar (i.e. club) within a one hour drive from your home.
Oh BTW, I was one of those Instructors who worked to build experience towards the Airlines. I gave 100% to all my students and worked damed hard at giving quality instruction. So don't let comments from others put you off.
Good luck with the search and savour every moment of learning to fly!
L.
Having been an Instructor at both Old Sarum Flying Club and Cabair School of Flying Elstree, without doubt where you should learn to fly is at a flying Club!
The special atmosphere at a flying club, in my opinion, would suit your remit much better. Clubs are more about the fun and enjoyment of learning to fly - whilst being no less professional.
Now whilst OSFC is too far for you to travel (although there are some members that do!), I would look for something similar (i.e. club) within a one hour drive from your home.
Oh BTW, I was one of those Instructors who worked to build experience towards the Airlines. I gave 100% to all my students and worked damed hard at giving quality instruction. So don't let comments from others put you off.
Good luck with the search and savour every moment of learning to fly!
L.
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Originally Posted by Phil73805
It's funny really, student pilots will put up with all sorts of crap that they would never consider in any other field of endeavor. Poorly maintained aircraft, bad instructors etc. During my training I put up with a verbally abusive instructor with an ego the size of a small country, eventually I walked away. Students MUST learn to be more demanding, I mean you're forking out a fortune to this company so they should provide you one main instructor who you're happy with and provide a level of service appropriate to the investment. They are not doing you a favour!
So while some seem to accept any nonsense just to "get to fly!!!
", others surely expect far too much from the "fortune" they are paying... Better try to get both messages across; which one needs to hear depends on what one's expectations are, IMVHO...
The Original Whirly
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Some good advice here. And I think it can be summarised quite simply.
The flying organisation must be prepared to do 100% for the students. If that's the case, it doesn't matter whether it calls itself a school or club.
The instructors must be prepared to do 100% for their students. If they do that, it doesn't actually matter how many flying hours they have, how many of them you fly with (within reason!), or what job they plan to have next month.
All of the above must expect 100% from you, know you're capable of it (very important for the under-confident), and you must be prepared to give it.
There is no place for second-best in aviation.
Visit several organisations, talk to instructors and students, maybe have several trial lessons. Then - and only then - should you decide.
However, if one place and/or instructor really, really grabs you, go for it. Gut feeling always has a place in aviation, and can even save your life...but that's another subject.
The flying organisation must be prepared to do 100% for the students. If that's the case, it doesn't matter whether it calls itself a school or club.
The instructors must be prepared to do 100% for their students. If they do that, it doesn't actually matter how many flying hours they have, how many of them you fly with (within reason!), or what job they plan to have next month.
All of the above must expect 100% from you, know you're capable of it (very important for the under-confident), and you must be prepared to give it.
There is no place for second-best in aviation.
Visit several organisations, talk to instructors and students, maybe have several trial lessons. Then - and only then - should you decide.
However, if one place and/or instructor really, really grabs you, go for it. Gut feeling always has a place in aviation, and can even save your life...but that's another subject.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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Quite agree Whirlybird - well summarised.
And further to my earlier post, the 2 really great instructors I had from Cabair were both on a 2 year then (hopefully) into the airlines deal, so in itself this should not put you off.
The 2 really ****e ones were not on such a deal.
I was mid IMC training when one left for his airline post and he was the height of dilligence in ensuring a smooth hand-over to the next instructor - so if one is near the end of his contract this need not be an issue either.
And further to my earlier post, the 2 really great instructors I had from Cabair were both on a 2 year then (hopefully) into the airlines deal, so in itself this should not put you off.
The 2 really ****e ones were not on such a deal.
I was mid IMC training when one left for his airline post and he was the height of dilligence in ensuring a smooth hand-over to the next instructor - so if one is near the end of his contract this need not be an issue either.
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Just a quick one, try Lydd, I did and still do, but the 300 mile commute is a problem
I live in Bradford West Yorks and use a wheelchair. Every time we go down to Kent I go to Lydd for atleast 1/2 an hour. Iam always made to feel welcome and the instructors are friendly. I can recomend all I've had. I did some T&Gs on Sunday in their 150, now I have 5 1/2 hrs 40+ to go
but the 300 mile commute is a problem I live in Bradford West Yorks and use a wheelchair. Every time we go down to Kent I go to Lydd for atleast 1/2 an hour. Iam always made to feel welcome and the instructors are friendly. I can recomend all I've had. I did some T&Gs on Sunday in their 150, now I have 5 1/2 hrs 40+ to go
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Ok, I might upset a few "dyed in the wool the USA is crap types", but what I would personally do ( and have done so!!
), is go to a JAA approved school in the USA and do you PPL. It will work out far cheaper, and don't belive all the nonsence you hear about the training being sub-standard, I went to Ormond Beach Aviation, ( agian, people will give differing opinions on this) and I had a superb instructor. I had the same instructor throughout my course, and a couple of others just for the odd hour to make sure everything was going ok . After passing my skills test (3 weeks and 6 days! ) , I did 25 hrs extra in a C 150, and a couple of hours in a PA 28. And I still had change from £7000 after 6 weeks in the states, all my flying training paid for, a shiney new ANR headset, flights, food, beer, nights out etc...and came away with my PPL, night qual, RTF licence and 74.6 hrs in my logbook!! IMHO the most important thing to learn in the PPL is good aircraft handling, good flight planning and Nav skills, and just getting comfortable in the air. - you don't need to pay £120 an hour in the uk for that, £40 in the USA is far more sensible!
The other good thing about OBA was the airfield was tower controlled in the day, (7am-7pm) and operated as an air/ground radio on a CTAF ( common traffic frequency) at night, so you got practice at flying in controlled and uncontrolled airfeilds, flying into major (Orlando
) airports, operating in very busy airspace and airfields ( 8-10 in the circuit at some points!!) I also got to land on short grass strips, got my night qualification as part of the PPL training and met loads of really good people. And When you get back to the uk with your still wet ink PPL, go and do a block of hours learning the UK airspace and radio. You will STILL have saved money over doing a PPL in the UK, and doing it in one go gives you the most important thing over all others in my opinion, CONTINUITY. You eat, sleep, breath drink and fart flying for the duration of your course, and there are lots of people to knock heads with should you be finding any part of the course difficult.
I had a fantastic time and wouldn't change a thing, yes it is hard work and it is a training course not a holiday, but work hard play hard and you won't go far wrong
Hope this helps!!
