Light Aircraft Crash on Isle of Wight

[Bahn-Jeaux]

From Whirls,

you often can't take two large people and full fuel.

I did W & B for a warrior a month ago and with two 15 stone passengers and full fuel, it would have been outside the envelope.

Also flown a Cherokee and it is far more critical than the warrior.

My experiences only, not an opinion or speculation, I will leave that to the authorities.

[Saab Dastard]

It is not the speculation per se that gets to me on this - and other, similar threads.

It is the descent into bickering between individuals - a la bose-x and choperpaul, for example.

In a thread discussing the possible causes of the deaths of 4 people it really is - IMHO - disrespectful.

Please understand that I don't want to single out the above 2, I simply use them as an example - and at least bose-x has tried to take it "off-line".

SD

[BBCapt]

Why?

'high-hopes', indeed! as to your comment - why even get airborne knowing you are 'in fact 15 kgs above MTOW' ?

Most likely many have all been there/got the T-Shirt but committing aviation with knowledge that 'something is amiss' is just ...plain daft!

[eharding]

Originally Posted by Saab Dastard

It is not the speculation per se that gets to me on this - and other, similar threads.
It is the descent into bickering between individuals - a la bose-x and choperpaul, for example.
In a thread discussing the possible causes of the deaths of 4 people it really is - IMHO - disrespectful.
Please understand that I don't want to single out the above 2, I simply use them as an example - and at least bose-x has tried to take it "off-line".
SD

Indeed, but you only have to pop over into Rumours & News to witness threads relating to airliner crashes with major loss of life ending up as an anorak fight between ostensibly professional pilots.
__________________

[ozzieausterdriver]

Condolences

Having read this thread and looked at the links I have to say I am very sad to read how this tradegy transpired. I once landed at Poham in an Auster J5P and re-fuelled, it was a hot summers day. We had 4 up and full fuel on our way to Bembridge. I didnt fancy my chances off 26 and requested the cross runway, the number escapes me, and remember the resistance from ATC to this request, but used the ''in the interests of safety'' chestnut to get my own way. I have to say I was very pleased I had in fact got the nod to do this as soon after everyone else also requested the southerly runway.

We had no problems but I believe that 26 would have been a close call on the day with the wind direction etc.

Condolences to all concerned and hope Sandown can keep their spirits up in these difficult times.


OAD

[Whirlybird]

It is not the speculation per se that gets to me on this - and other, similar threads. It is the descent into bickering between individuals - a la bose-x and choperpaul, for example. In a thread discussing the possible causes of the deaths of 4 people it really is - IMHO - disrespectful

You've hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, but you only have to pop over into Rumours & News to witness threads relating to airliner crashes with major loss of life ending up as an anorak fight between ostensibly professional pilots.

It doesn't matter who does it, it's not on, IMHO.

[fireflybob]

As a qualified flying instructor I have been thinking about this accident. Until the final report is published we can only speculate as to the probable cause.

Error chains can start a long way from the final event. If during flying training a loading calculation and performance calculation was made for every single sortie would this go a long way to eliminate performance related accidents? In the airline world it is taken for granted that a correctly appended loadsheet must be produced and signed for, also that Performance is checked for every takeoff. The latter is often presented in a "simplified" form to enable rapid and accurate calculation.

[S-Works]

Erm.... to be fair I did not get into any bickering, I just said that if anything needed to be said then take it off line. I was most careful not to bicker.

I do agree bickering does a disservice to the dead, but healthy speculation could save a life.

[Saab Dastard]

If during flying training a loading calculation and performance calculation was made for every single sortie would this go a long way to eliminate performance related accidents?

Possibly, but it might actually be counter-productive, in the sense that during training the load is rarely going to be more than 2 up (P u/t + inst), no baggage and almost always from the same strip, so the results will almost always be virtually identically satisfactory, potentially leading to a blase attitude and a false sense of security.

It would definitely be of considerable benefit to always do such calcs with an instructor if landing and taking off from a different airfield - particularly grass / short / sloping strips.

And that leads into another discussion of the PPL syllabus, regarding the variety and types of airfields that students could / should be introduced to during training rather than after.

SD

[Dysonsphere]

Slightly off thread I was taking off in a PA 28 140 with 3 up 1 being an instructor and we selected 2 stages of flap to practice a SF take off, we got off the ground then suddenly found our selves back on the ground for no apparent reason(luckly we were at White Waltham so 1000m to play with) after finally getting airbourne on the climb out we discovered only 1 stage of flap set. As far as we can worh out the last bump on the runway on the first lift off cause the flaps to lose on stage of setting, on a shorter runway we would have been in trouble.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

RTFM

The flight manual, and pilots manual, gives guidance, but most private pilots, (myself included in an earlier life), have all overloaded singles, without even thinking about it.
In later life and a ATP behind me, I realised just how stupid some or even all of my private flying escapades were. I do not intend to go into to many details.

I have limited experience on type, but have an association with a group 140.
The standing instruction is no take off without LOAD SHEET.
Basically fuel to tabs, 2 on board only, suitable runway, and WAT considerations. (even if not perf A.)

Just what was the density altitude at Sandown. ?
How long was the grass. ?
How much fuel, and payload. ?

All of these will be in the official report.



I had a great procedure for SF take off, full power until brakes unable to hold, then light pressure to reduce nose wheel contact, then at 75% of rotate speed, rapidly appy TO flap, the airtcraft went into hover mode, and after a slight pitch down, accelerated away.
I am still alive to tell the tale, but my instructor almos hung me out to sry, when I tried to advise a new guy how to operate. Bush pilots are &&&&&&& all he would say.

Take care guys. RTFM.

glf

[Whirlybird]

The flight manual, and pilots manual, gives guidance, but most private pilots, (myself included in an earlier life), have all overloaded singles, without even thinking about it.

In some flying schools the POH is hidden away, and a student or pilot practically has to sign the official secrets act to get hold of it!

IMHO, the whole problem starts in SOME flying schools (I'm not suggesting ALL flying schools). School aircraft are sometimes overloaded during training, since they were never designed to take two large people and lots of fuel. Instructors know they can get away with it if the runway is long, the weather is cool, and they have a headwind. So they do, not realising that in the absence of any explanation, students will copy what you DO rather than what you SAY. I asked an instructor about this way back when I was a very new PPL. He told me that although you really shouldn't go over the weight stated in the POH, there was usually some leeway. Just don't do it, he said, if you're at 2000 ft and there's no headwind and the weather is hot and the runway is short and you're uphill on grass...ie, don't push your luck. It was good advice, because it led me to understand these things rather than just following the rules...or ignoring them.

[bunnywabbit]

Yet another incident at Sandown yesterday Its on IOW radio station website and I do not know how paste it on here.

As a GA pilot I think its about time that we look out our actions as pilots and clean up our act and have more sensible approach to flying. This incident has gone straight to news desk and the public will make there own minds. At the moment aviation on the island is giving the NIMBYs ammunition.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

As well as the take off and climb performance being affected by a density altitude higher than many would be used to in the UK climate, no-one has yet mentioned the higher liklihood of plug fouling, which could explain a loss of already somewhat limited power ..two fouled plugs in one cylinder can be hard to detect in cruise or on a mag check and may only show up as less than minimum static RPM on full power at take off.

The 140 is a lovely machine, but those little fat wings can quickly get you on the wrong side of the drag curve and keep you there if other things are already stacked againt you.

In my experience as a stude and instructor in the UK, (including flights to Sandown) and as an instructor here in Aus checking out UK pilots, the old adage "I was told NEVER to touch the mixture below 5000 feet!!!!" in direct contrdiction of the POH seems to be taken as gospel...

Condolences to those involved and their loved ones.

[172driver]

School aircraft are sometimes overloaded during training, since they were never designed to take two large people and lots of fuel.

Whirly, you and quite a few others here seem to confuse W&B with MTOW. Two average sized adults and full fuel will put you slightly out of CofG (forward) on a PA28, however it will NOT put you over MTOW.

In any case, relevant to this accident there are three distinct issues, which keep being conflated:
1) W&B
2) MTOW
3) TO performance

While all three are of course related, it would really help to keep them apart for the sake of this discussion.

On a different note, I am always flabbergasted by this idiotic don't touch the mixture attitude. How many people in the UK are being taught how to lean for best power ???

[high-hopes]

Whirly, you and quite a few others here seem to confuse W&B with MTOW. Two average sized adults and full fuel will put you slightly out of CofG (forward) on a PA28, however it will NOT put you over MTOW.

It is also true that two average/large adults and full tanks will most likely be over MTOW on a C152 where most dual hours are being logged.
Or even worse on a DA20 on which I logged quite a few PUT hours.

I don't recall any mf my instructors defuelling or doing a 15 min run up to burn off fuel !

Like everything it's common sense, don't think that 10 kgs over, on a long tarmac runway , is a major sin.
Different story on short grass strips / adverse weather / wind / temperature conditions.

[Whirlybird]

I was indeed thinking of C152s and PA38s when I posted. I certainly wasn't confused in my own mind, but my apologies if I confused others.

[bunnywabbit]

G-EMMA thanks for that I am hopeless with computers!
The point of my post was to get GA to be more responsible for our actions and not get ourselves on the radio and in the papers. Accidents do happen its a fact of life, but the last two on the island have had a bit of a human input both could have been thrown away at an early stage. As an instructor I do go thru tyres, before a first solo I will demo an emergency stop and will generally pop the door on a student to find out what they do. Why continue when it does not feel right, look right, perform right or sound right
I do not like to say it, but if GA keeps having accidents which can be avoided the NIMBYs will have some of the best airfields in the UK shutdown!!!

Lets take action now and think about safety!

[airborne_artist]

From http://www.iwradio.co.uk/news.aspx

."..luckily he’s avoided lots of farmer’s bails..." - clearly the IoW Farmers' cricket champs was on?

[A and C]

CFI

I can assure you that two fowled plugs in the same cylinder can't be missed at any time exceping power off decent.

As for the mixture control it is fitted to be used as stated in the flight manual or POH, you should not take folk lore of old wives tails in to account.