Checklists in the operating theatre.
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From: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Checklists in the operating theatre.
the surgeon, who has clocked up 700 flying hours, said: "The challenge in the cockpit is similar to the challenges in the operating theatre. Any mistakes lead to drastic consequences and you have to make sure everything's perfect.
"I suppose I like living on a controlled edge.
"Since flying, I've introduced checklists in the operating theatre. I've put up signs above taps where you wash your hands before surgery, reminding people to check they have the right patient, the correct X-ray, and such like.
"I train surgeons at Newcastle University and I've introduced log books there. Medicine training is time-based, but in flying it's competency-based. You can't move on until you're competent in that field.
"We can learn a lot from aviation and we're moving towards competency training in medicine.
"Like pilots I have introduced log books for students and I fill them in once they've achieved something. As they pass each exercise, it goes in the log book."
"I suppose I like living on a controlled edge.
"Since flying, I've introduced checklists in the operating theatre. I've put up signs above taps where you wash your hands before surgery, reminding people to check they have the right patient, the correct X-ray, and such like.
"I train surgeons at Newcastle University and I've introduced log books there. Medicine training is time-based, but in flying it's competency-based. You can't move on until you're competent in that field.
"We can learn a lot from aviation and we're moving towards competency training in medicine.
"Like pilots I have introduced log books for students and I fill them in once they've achieved something. As they pass each exercise, it goes in the log book."
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I write as a professional in aviation - having worked as an air traffic controller and been involved in a number of management functions (safety and operational). One might expect similar measures that are seen on a flightdeck or an ATC unit to be applied in an operating theatre. Sadly however, on those occasions I have had contact with the medical profession (in a professional capacity - mine, not theirs), it appears that such controls designed for safety are not nearly as mature as we have in the aviation business.
A good example is reporting culture and sharing of lessons learned through hard experience. Certainly in the UK there is a well established reporting system and despite the fact that it may have a few shortcomings it means that data collected nationally can be used quickly to identify undesirable trends etc. This system has been in use - and developing - for 30+ years but, as I understand it, the medical equivalent is only just being established amid resistance.
A good example is reporting culture and sharing of lessons learned through hard experience. Certainly in the UK there is a well established reporting system and despite the fact that it may have a few shortcomings it means that data collected nationally can be used quickly to identify undesirable trends etc. This system has been in use - and developing - for 30+ years but, as I understand it, the medical equivalent is only just being established amid resistance.
Joined: May 2006
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From: Manchester UK
"Medicine training is time-based, but in flying it's competency-based. You can't move on until you're competent in that field."
So basically this guy, WHO TRAINS SURGEONS has only just discovered that it might be a good idea if
a) They can do their job
and
b) Their bosses had a system in place to check if they can do the job
As I've long suspected with the medical profession, competency has nothing to do with it. As long as you've done it for a long time, whether you doing it right or wrong, they will promote you to Doctor or even, evidently, Surgeon!!
Competency, ability and checking they're any good is, or at least up to now has been, irrelevant - Anybody else scared?
Xraf
So basically this guy, WHO TRAINS SURGEONS has only just discovered that it might be a good idea if
a) They can do their job
and
b) Their bosses had a system in place to check if they can do the job
As I've long suspected with the medical profession, competency has nothing to do with it. As long as you've done it for a long time, whether you doing it right or wrong, they will promote you to Doctor or even, evidently, Surgeon!!
Competency, ability and checking they're any good is, or at least up to now has been, irrelevant - Anybody else scared?
Xraf
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Maders UK
Gentlemen,
As both a consultant surgeon and a pilot I can tell you that there are certain similarities between the two professions but would agree with slim slag that the procedural nature of the anaesthetist's role is far closer to that of a pilot than that of the surgeon's.
As a matter of fact checklists and safety checks in surgery do exist and have done for some time but measuring outcome (which is a key assessment tool for evaluating the impact of any checklist or training endeavour) is nigh on impossible in some specialities and very difficult in others.
It is easy to measure outcome if you are a cardiac surgeon for example, you can measure survival rates and how often the bypass grafts you plumb in block up, but in a speciality where nobody ever dies it is very difficult to measure hard outcomes and you have to lok at perceived quality of life improvement. This is where it gets a bit nebulous.
SB
As both a consultant surgeon and a pilot I can tell you that there are certain similarities between the two professions but would agree with slim slag that the procedural nature of the anaesthetist's role is far closer to that of a pilot than that of the surgeon's.
As a matter of fact checklists and safety checks in surgery do exist and have done for some time but measuring outcome (which is a key assessment tool for evaluating the impact of any checklist or training endeavour) is nigh on impossible in some specialities and very difficult in others.
It is easy to measure outcome if you are a cardiac surgeon for example, you can measure survival rates and how often the bypass grafts you plumb in block up, but in a speciality where nobody ever dies it is very difficult to measure hard outcomes and you have to lok at perceived quality of life improvement. This is where it gets a bit nebulous.
SB
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: E Anglia
As a recently retired Consultant Gynaecologist and pilot I agree with most of what scooter boy says:
The Royal Colleges have had logbooks for years and our college (RCOG) brought in continuous professional development many years before the surgical colleges (and I am a fellow of two of these as well, in case you ask)and before it was made compulsory by HMG.
I would however agree that while a surgeon may only kill one person at a time, I would not be happy with the airline ethos of having a different crew on virtually every flight: This is I believe to assist CRM and to allow P1 and P2 to check each other continuously, I would find having a different trainee to assist at every operating list very counter-productive.
That said , the various medical journals often quote the airline industry in their quest to reduce the length of working shifts for all grades of medical staff.
Safe flying
Cusco.
The Royal Colleges have had logbooks for years and our college (RCOG) brought in continuous professional development many years before the surgical colleges (and I am a fellow of two of these as well, in case you ask)and before it was made compulsory by HMG.
I would however agree that while a surgeon may only kill one person at a time, I would not be happy with the airline ethos of having a different crew on virtually every flight: This is I believe to assist CRM and to allow P1 and P2 to check each other continuously, I would find having a different trainee to assist at every operating list very counter-productive.
That said , the various medical journals often quote the airline industry in their quest to reduce the length of working shifts for all grades of medical staff.
Safe flying
Cusco.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Having had a severed finger nerve re-joined today, I must just say that you surgeons are certainly worth your weight. The plastic surgeon who did it had the steadiest hands I've ever seen! But I must say, their "flight deck" was more like a meeting of the W.I than strict proceedural workplace. All the team, plus a couple of spectating fellow surgeons were gossiping about one of their collegues imminant break up from her latest boyfriend
SS
SS
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From: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
But I must say, their "flight deck" was more like a meeting of the W.I than strict proceedural workplace. All the team, plus a couple of spectating fellow surgeons were gossiping about one of their collegues imminant break up from her latest boyfriend
Designed to keep your mind off what is actually happening. Never worked with me, I like to have a good look at what is going on - it tends to concentrate their minds. 
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Scotland
Arguably, flying a plane is a lot easier than becoming a surgeon.
You can get a PPL from zero in 3 weeks.
I'd say most surgeons could get a PPL.
Most PPLs couldn't become surgeons
I think the 2 activities are only linked by the fact a surgeon will earn a lot of money and, therefore, be able to afford flying !
You can get a PPL from zero in 3 weeks.
I'd say most surgeons could get a PPL.
Most PPLs couldn't become surgeons
I think the 2 activities are only linked by the fact a surgeon will earn a lot of money and, therefore, be able to afford flying !
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
You cannot really compare the two. The PPL is deliberately made as simple as possible, becoming a surgeon is deliberately made as hard as possible (though perhaps that has changed recently due to political meddling).
