Help - My 'Plane share' is going wrong
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Devon
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Help - My 'Plane share' is going wrong
Hi Guys
Planes shares are great - when they work. I own a plane 50/50 with a good friend, based upon a local strip. Up to now, over 2 years, no problem. Plane is always available for both of us, we fly a lot together, 100% the fun but only half the cost, etc etc. Always done on a friendly basis with no legal paperwork etc. Now the other owner has found a new girlfriend and moved 100 miles away and wants to arbitrarily book the plane for 2 week slots and keep it a few miles from himself and nearly 100 miles from me. Has even suggested he doesn't want me flying it during 'his 2 weeks', and has lost all interest in any days out where we both flew the plane etc. He is not too chuffed about my suggestion he 'sell his share'. I personally think he is unreasonable as after all he is the one that wanted to move 100 miles. Any suggestions on how I can resolve this - without too much argument and hassle? Regards Gordon51
Planes shares are great - when they work. I own a plane 50/50 with a good friend, based upon a local strip. Up to now, over 2 years, no problem. Plane is always available for both of us, we fly a lot together, 100% the fun but only half the cost, etc etc. Always done on a friendly basis with no legal paperwork etc. Now the other owner has found a new girlfriend and moved 100 miles away and wants to arbitrarily book the plane for 2 week slots and keep it a few miles from himself and nearly 100 miles from me. Has even suggested he doesn't want me flying it during 'his 2 weeks', and has lost all interest in any days out where we both flew the plane etc. He is not too chuffed about my suggestion he 'sell his share'. I personally think he is unreasonable as after all he is the one that wanted to move 100 miles. Any suggestions on how I can resolve this - without too much argument and hassle? Regards Gordon51
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. Dissolve the group and sell the aircraft to a 3rd party.
or
2. Get an independent valuation, and one of you buy the other out completely. Obviously who ever both it would have the option of finding a new partner.
or
3. Base the aircraft 50% of the time close to him and 50% close to you.
or
4. Find a new airfield to base the aircraft on that's 50 miles from both of you.
It's not unreasonable for him to want decent access to the aircraft...after all he paid for 50% of the capital, and continues to pay 50% of the running costs.
What you both have to accept is that if you were living 100 miles apart from one another when you first thought of buying something together, you'd probably have dismissed the idea as unworkable fairly quickly, or would have had to make one of the above compromises.
Things change, and people move one. While it's true to say that it is him that has moved on, it's also unreasonable of you to expect him to leave the aircraft which he owns 50% of the capital in, right beside you, where he has little or no access to it, and to continue to pay 50% of the bills.
Baseing it 2 weeks beside him and 2 weeks beside you doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me under the circumstances. It's certainly more reasonable in my view than you insisting it stays beside you all the time.
dp
or
2. Get an independent valuation, and one of you buy the other out completely. Obviously who ever both it would have the option of finding a new partner.
or
3. Base the aircraft 50% of the time close to him and 50% close to you.
or
4. Find a new airfield to base the aircraft on that's 50 miles from both of you.
It's not unreasonable for him to want decent access to the aircraft...after all he paid for 50% of the capital, and continues to pay 50% of the running costs.
What you both have to accept is that if you were living 100 miles apart from one another when you first thought of buying something together, you'd probably have dismissed the idea as unworkable fairly quickly, or would have had to make one of the above compromises.
Things change, and people move one. While it's true to say that it is him that has moved on, it's also unreasonable of you to expect him to leave the aircraft which he owns 50% of the capital in, right beside you, where he has little or no access to it, and to continue to pay 50% of the bills.
Baseing it 2 weeks beside him and 2 weeks beside you doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me under the circumstances. It's certainly more reasonable in my view than you insisting it stays beside you all the time.
dp
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bracknell, UK
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insist on being allowed the use of his new girlfriend on a pro-rata basis to compensate you for the loss of use of the aircraft....unless of course she's a complete Swamp Donkey.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ed, that that's the best idea I've heard for a long time!
Other than that, it would be simpler to just dissolve the group as often any compromise becomes unworkable and very complicated.
This is a prime example of why nobody should get into a group without a decent legal contract, especially when friends are involved. A sad thing really.
Other than that, it would be simpler to just dissolve the group as often any compromise becomes unworkable and very complicated.
This is a prime example of why nobody should get into a group without a decent legal contract, especially when friends are involved. A sad thing really.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are the regs on selling block time in the UK? If they're manageable, buy out his half and find a block time partner, that way you get to call the shots and have priority. Sell the block time in 1000 pound chunks; that way you're never more than 1000 pounds away from terminating the agreement.
Theoretically in Canada your aircraft has to be registered commercial to do so. So instead, we "loan" or aircraft, on a "pay your own expenses" basis and your close friend gives you an annual "gift" for being so kind. You do have to have the person named on the insurance policy.
Theoretically in Canada your aircraft has to be registered commercial to do so. So instead, we "loan" or aircraft, on a "pay your own expenses" basis and your close friend gives you an annual "gift" for being so kind. You do have to have the person named on the insurance policy.
Life's too short for ironing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Scotland, & Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a practical level, how can you regulate the 2 week change over? If weather gets in the way, or work, or girlfriend, the aircraft is delayed and you, or your partner, misses out on the alloted 2 weeks.
On top of that, every time you fly that 100 miles, you're adding time to the engine and airframe. Not a huge factor, but if you're doing it every 2 weeks, without fail - thats 26 times a year. Depending on your speed, 26 hrs +/-..... Time wasted on boring ferrying, not a fun $100 hamburger trip.
On top of that, every time you fly that 100 miles, you're adding time to the engine and airframe. Not a huge factor, but if you're doing it every 2 weeks, without fail - thats 26 times a year. Depending on your speed, 26 hrs +/-..... Time wasted on boring ferrying, not a fun $100 hamburger trip.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Times like these a "Savoy" clause s pretty helpful. Principle is pretty basic, if party A wishes to buy party B out then A nominates the price they are willing pay. Party B then has 30 days (or whatever timeframe is agreed) to match that offer and buy Party A out or if Party B chooses not to do so then Party B must sell to Party A at the nominated price.
No perfect, particularly if there is a monetary imbalanc ebetween the partners, but a reasonable way of ensuring both parties think the price is fair.
Equally if you keep the partnership going I'd be asking for costs associated with ferrying.
No perfect, particularly if there is a monetary imbalanc ebetween the partners, but a reasonable way of ensuring both parties think the price is fair.
Equally if you keep the partnership going I'd be asking for costs associated with ferrying.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dublinpilot tells it like it is. But first you have to both accept that the other has a point of view and isn't being unreasonable. Calm down, sit down over a a drink, and discuss it sensibly.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: England
Age: 60
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gordon,
You have my sympathy.
I am in a very similar position to you, in as much as I half own an aeroplane with a very good friend. It has worked very well for us. Plane always avaliable when we need it and we also fly a lot together, so we are never short of constructive criticsm from the right hand seat. We have also pushed each other to do Night, IMC and Multi.
Luckily we are still good friends and its working very well. We too have no 'contract' and with only two in the group who has the deciding vote?
IMHO it is very black and white. Your friend is completely changing the basis on which you bought and currently operate the aeroplane. Even though you don't have a contract, you do have 'an understanding'. He is the one 'in the wrong'.
He cannot change the base of the aeroplane without your consent. If he wants these two week blocks, then that's fine, but HE must incur the cost and time of positioning and repositioning the plane to his local field, all within his two week window.
He will soon get fed up, especially if he suddenly needs the plane to go somewhere during your two weeks. As someone said, never trust a bloke who follows his d**k. Once the girlfriend finds out how unreasonable he his, she'll soon drop him, plane or not. I bet he's got a very big watch.
But, could you perhaps post a picture of the plane and the girlfriend so that we can all decide....
Good Luck
3Y
You have my sympathy.
I am in a very similar position to you, in as much as I half own an aeroplane with a very good friend. It has worked very well for us. Plane always avaliable when we need it and we also fly a lot together, so we are never short of constructive criticsm from the right hand seat. We have also pushed each other to do Night, IMC and Multi.
Luckily we are still good friends and its working very well. We too have no 'contract' and with only two in the group who has the deciding vote?
IMHO it is very black and white. Your friend is completely changing the basis on which you bought and currently operate the aeroplane. Even though you don't have a contract, you do have 'an understanding'. He is the one 'in the wrong'.
He cannot change the base of the aeroplane without your consent. If he wants these two week blocks, then that's fine, but HE must incur the cost and time of positioning and repositioning the plane to his local field, all within his two week window.
He will soon get fed up, especially if he suddenly needs the plane to go somewhere during your two weeks. As someone said, never trust a bloke who follows his d**k. Once the girlfriend finds out how unreasonable he his, she'll soon drop him, plane or not. I bet he's got a very big watch.
But, could you perhaps post a picture of the plane and the girlfriend so that we can all decide....
Good Luck
3Y
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Erm if it is a 50/50 share than how can the "owner" be making these demands?
If you own it 50/50 then you have to negotiate. If he want's to move it from it's established base then he has to offer to buy you out or you to buy him out.
Tell him to sling his hook.
If you own it 50/50 then you have to negotiate. If he want's to move it from it's established base then he has to offer to buy you out or you to buy him out.
Tell him to sling his hook.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 10 west
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its unfortunate but it happens...a girl comes between two good buddies...but you have to move on. as has been said if you have no written agreement you'll just both have to sit down and work it out. one buys out the other ( and hopefully won't wind up in litigation which would be sad.)
if you can't agree, it has to be sold.
sad but any partnership is like a marriage. if unhappy differences occur they have to be worked out or its at an end.
sorry but my guess is you already know the reality.
if you can't agree, it has to be sold.
sad but any partnership is like a marriage. if unhappy differences occur they have to be worked out or its at an end.
sorry but my guess is you already know the reality.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had the same problem with a girlfriend back in the sixties. The other chap wanted to marry her. We couldn't agree on a price so we decided to hazard for her. I suggested gin rummy he said he preferred canasta. She said that Russian roulette was more appropriate and went to bed with the adj.. I think he married her.
Put the 1/2 share up for sale
You can both advertise at your different locations. Whoever gets the best price at his chosen base gets the new partner and buys out the other with the proceeds.
Provided the other agrees that the proceeds are sufficient (viz. Savoy clause described earlier); if not, buys out partner for aforesaid offer.
Provided the other agrees that the proceeds are sufficient (viz. Savoy clause described earlier); if not, buys out partner for aforesaid offer.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sheffield, UK
Age: 42
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My suggestion would be to sell the plane or get one of you to sell the share to the other. Selling the 50% share would of course be the better option as you are willing to buy it.
Another option would be court or solicitor based mediation, and although no legal contract exists you have a verbal agreement and should for the sake of expenses be able to prove that this is the case, ie use bills and payments to demonstrate the 50/50 split.
The aircraft in the mean time should remain based where it has been as not to fundamentally alter the original agreement.
Also look at the questions such as who is driving the changes and why? If the skirt is driving the changes, unless she has a share now given as a gift then she has no say.
Is he using to teach her to fly? Do you agree with this if he is and do you have insurance which covers that? if not it could prove costly for both as the owner will be held accountable.
Just my thoughts.
Another option would be court or solicitor based mediation, and although no legal contract exists you have a verbal agreement and should for the sake of expenses be able to prove that this is the case, ie use bills and payments to demonstrate the 50/50 split.
The aircraft in the mean time should remain based where it has been as not to fundamentally alter the original agreement.
Also look at the questions such as who is driving the changes and why? If the skirt is driving the changes, unless she has a share now given as a gift then she has no say.
Is he using to teach her to fly? Do you agree with this if he is and do you have insurance which covers that? if not it could prove costly for both as the owner will be held accountable.
Just my thoughts.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is where a proper agreement is needed at the start. I would agree that as he wants to change things he should offer to buy you out and if you do not want to sell then he should sell to you at a fair price. How often are these 2 week slots anyway? If every other month then probably not too bad as you will have the bulk of the access - though I do not think it reasonable of him to try to hog it in that period - presumably he will sort out and pay for all the ferrying and make sure it is back at the right time, if he wants it every other 2 weeks then he really is being unreasonable. Whatever you end up doing I would recommend you get a proper agreement signed up for your group, this partner or the next one.