PPL vs Microlight
I get an hour's flying for under £30. 80kts cruise, 60 litre tank...no need for GA IMHO!
).Therefore, IMHO the performance/economy of modern microlights, whilst excellent, is not a reason in itself to decide against a full JAR PPL, as comparable/better performance can be had with modern GA types.
For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL unless you are absolutely sure you will never want to progress on to night/IMC/Multi/whatever. Having got the licence, you can then choose from a wider range of aircraft, and fairly easily fly microlights if you so wish.
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For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL unless you are absolutely sure you will never want to progress on to night/IMC/Multi/whatever. Having got the licence, you can then choose from a wider range of aircraft, and fairly easily fly microlights if you so wish.
it cost double per hour to train in a spam can rather than a "Eurostar" or other 3 axis microlight
it cost double per hour to train in a spam can rather than a "Eurostar" or other 3 axis microlight
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"For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL"
NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190
The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight
NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190
The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight
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£182/hr is far too much to pay for PPL lessons. It isn't a "standard charge", it is way above the average.
Blackbushe Aviation: PA38/C152 Dual = £135 incl VAT
Cabair (same location) is about £140 incl VAT
Both have annual membership fees, both charge for (at least one) landing(s), both are less than £182/hr
As for the hours taken comparison (therefore hours * cost simple calculation) - that, too, is a red herring if he/she wants to add any ratings now, soon or later.
Last edited by rustle; 7th Jun 2007 at 21:25.
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Rans Flyer wrote:
NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190
The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight
I beg to disagree.
The C42 Ikarus microlight - which my microlight school uses for training - is exactly the same airframe as the light aircraft kit built version. Just different paperwork and MAUW.
So, by telling the owner of a microlight C42 that they can get a licence in 25 hours, but telling the owner of a light aircraft one it will be 45 hours is morally wrong.
It will take 45 hours, at least, for an ab initio pilot to learn either to an adequate standard.
It might have been different learning to fly a Skycraft Scout or Weedhopper - the bee's knees where the regs first came in. (the weedhopper only had two axis of control and no flaps, for instance - makes Ex 4 a lot quicker to teach!)
Very best wishes,
Colin
ps. hope I haven't done myself out of potential students, but what we also try to offer at Strathaven is a different atmosphere to flying and training than the "group A" schools.
NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190
The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight
I beg to disagree.
The C42 Ikarus microlight - which my microlight school uses for training - is exactly the same airframe as the light aircraft kit built version. Just different paperwork and MAUW.
So, by telling the owner of a microlight C42 that they can get a licence in 25 hours, but telling the owner of a light aircraft one it will be 45 hours is morally wrong.
It will take 45 hours, at least, for an ab initio pilot to learn either to an adequate standard.
It might have been different learning to fly a Skycraft Scout or Weedhopper - the bee's knees where the regs first came in. (the weedhopper only had two axis of control and no flaps, for instance - makes Ex 4 a lot quicker to teach!)
Very best wishes,
Colin
ps. hope I haven't done myself out of potential students, but what we also try to offer at Strathaven is a different atmosphere to flying and training than the "group A" schools.
Having a few hours in Weedhoppers, I'd venture that it has enough handling ideosynchrasies that learning to fly on one would be exciting enough that the lack of ailerons wouldn't significantly make life easier!
Anyhow, let's try and look at this impartially (I hope that I can do this, since I fly 3-axis microlights, flexwings and "group A" all fairly regularly).
Costs of learning vary around the country, and depending upon what you want to fly. Similarly, the costs of buying an aeroplane or share vary. So, let's try and be impartial here, I'm going to set myself a few basic rules:
(1) Compare in about the same place
(2) (Almost) nobody learns in minimum hours - let's assume 20% over the minimum - so that's 54hrs for a JAR-PPL(SEP), 38.4hrs for an NPPL(SEP) or 30 hrs for an NPPL(M).
(3) Stick to reasonably basic modernish 2-seaters, you can always spend a lot more, whether in microlight or group A.
(4) Cost of charts, landing fees, etc. is likely to be similar(ish) so we'll ignore them.
(5) PPL (whichever flavour) completed within 1 year's club membership.
(6) No taildraggers (I like taildraggers, but I'm sticking with "easy" for the new pilot). Note that both 3-axis microlights and group A offer cheaper aeroplanes with the tailwheel at the correct end!
(7) Show purchased aeroplanes with similar running costs.
I'm going to pick Sywell for an example, because there are good microlight and group A schools there, it's roughly central in England, I happen to like the place, and both schools prices are shown on their websites. So, let's start with learning to fly
Learning on a flexwing
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,485
Extra 5 hours: £455
Total = £2,940 (This was in a Pegasus Quantum)
Learning on 3-axis
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,665
Extra 5 hours: £490
Total = £3,155 (This was in Cosmik Eurostar)
Learning on a light aeroplane - to NPPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 23.4hrs = £2,925
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £4,970 (This was in an Aero AT3)
Learning on a light aeroplane - to JAR-PPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 39hrs = £4,875
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £7,020 (This was in an Aero AT3)
Now, let's look at buying ourselves a cheap but sensible 2-seat aeroplane. I'll use as my source www.afors.co.uk (I'm exercising some judgment here) and pick the cheapest sensible looking first aeroplane that I can find.
For a flexwing, I'll pick this Pegasus XL-Q, at £2,750
For a 3-axis microlight, I'll pick this Cyclone AX3, at £4,500
For a "group A" aeroplane (inevitably PFA if we're going for cost), this Rans S6 at £17,750.
So, comparing the costs of realistically getting a PPL, and then buying outright your first, cheap-to-run, 2-seat aeroplane, I get the following:
NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 + £2,750 = £5,690 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 + £4,500 = £7,655 (+£1,965 / 34%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 + £17,750 = £22,720 (+£17,030 / 299%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 + £17,750 = £24,770 (+£19,080 / 335%)
Or of just learning to fly, ignoring purchase costs
NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 (+£215 / 7%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 (+£2,030 / 69%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 (+£4,080 / 138%)
G
(A few disclaimers...
i. This is only one airfield, and one set of adverts
ii. I know several of the people selling flying/aeroplanes above. This is co-incidental and I hope hasn't affected my arguments.
iii. Buy a share, it's much cheaper than buying outright, whatever you're flying
iv. Don't forget to work out the cost of flying the aeroplane afterwards! There are loads of threads about this on PPrune, so I'm not going to start another one.) If you want a really rough rule of thumb, take the cost of fuel, add 150% and you'll be about right for most powered flying machines.
v. If you're really cash-strapped, don't forget gliders.
vi. Whatever you fly, you'll still need charts, landing fees, etc.
vii. Never forget that you can usually trade hours and experience on any one aircraft towards qualifications to fly another.
Anyhow, let's try and look at this impartially (I hope that I can do this, since I fly 3-axis microlights, flexwings and "group A" all fairly regularly).
Costs of learning vary around the country, and depending upon what you want to fly. Similarly, the costs of buying an aeroplane or share vary. So, let's try and be impartial here, I'm going to set myself a few basic rules:
(1) Compare in about the same place
(2) (Almost) nobody learns in minimum hours - let's assume 20% over the minimum - so that's 54hrs for a JAR-PPL(SEP), 38.4hrs for an NPPL(SEP) or 30 hrs for an NPPL(M).
(3) Stick to reasonably basic modernish 2-seaters, you can always spend a lot more, whether in microlight or group A.
(4) Cost of charts, landing fees, etc. is likely to be similar(ish) so we'll ignore them.
(5) PPL (whichever flavour) completed within 1 year's club membership.
(6) No taildraggers (I like taildraggers, but I'm sticking with "easy" for the new pilot). Note that both 3-axis microlights and group A offer cheaper aeroplanes with the tailwheel at the correct end!
(7) Show purchased aeroplanes with similar running costs.
I'm going to pick Sywell for an example, because there are good microlight and group A schools there, it's roughly central in England, I happen to like the place, and both schools prices are shown on their websites. So, let's start with learning to fly
Learning on a flexwing
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,485
Extra 5 hours: £455
Total = £2,940 (This was in a Pegasus Quantum)
Learning on 3-axis
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,665
Extra 5 hours: £490
Total = £3,155 (This was in Cosmik Eurostar)
Learning on a light aeroplane - to NPPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 23.4hrs = £2,925
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £4,970 (This was in an Aero AT3)
Learning on a light aeroplane - to JAR-PPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 39hrs = £4,875
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £7,020 (This was in an Aero AT3)
Now, let's look at buying ourselves a cheap but sensible 2-seat aeroplane. I'll use as my source www.afors.co.uk (I'm exercising some judgment here) and pick the cheapest sensible looking first aeroplane that I can find.
For a flexwing, I'll pick this Pegasus XL-Q, at £2,750
For a 3-axis microlight, I'll pick this Cyclone AX3, at £4,500
For a "group A" aeroplane (inevitably PFA if we're going for cost), this Rans S6 at £17,750.
So, comparing the costs of realistically getting a PPL, and then buying outright your first, cheap-to-run, 2-seat aeroplane, I get the following:
NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 + £2,750 = £5,690 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 + £4,500 = £7,655 (+£1,965 / 34%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 + £17,750 = £22,720 (+£17,030 / 299%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 + £17,750 = £24,770 (+£19,080 / 335%)
Or of just learning to fly, ignoring purchase costs
NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 (+£215 / 7%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 (+£2,030 / 69%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 (+£4,080 / 138%)
G
(A few disclaimers...
i. This is only one airfield, and one set of adverts
ii. I know several of the people selling flying/aeroplanes above. This is co-incidental and I hope hasn't affected my arguments.
iii. Buy a share, it's much cheaper than buying outright, whatever you're flying
iv. Don't forget to work out the cost of flying the aeroplane afterwards! There are loads of threads about this on PPrune, so I'm not going to start another one.) If you want a really rough rule of thumb, take the cost of fuel, add 150% and you'll be about right for most powered flying machines.
v. If you're really cash-strapped, don't forget gliders.
vi. Whatever you fly, you'll still need charts, landing fees, etc.
vii. Never forget that you can usually trade hours and experience on any one aircraft towards qualifications to fly another.
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An excellent analysis GtE.
The only thing I would like to see added
is a cost from each of your baselines for the addition of any other rating.
I don't know what the "differences training cost/hours" from your NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) to JAA PPL (SEP) is in minimum hours or I'd work it out myself.
Just curious if there is a point where the price-gap closes with the addition of a single extra rating or not. For instance if NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) hours only count at 10% you would spend more altogether for your first additional rating going that route.
The only thing I would like to see added
is a cost from each of your baselines for the addition of any other rating.I don't know what the "differences training cost/hours" from your NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) to JAA PPL (SEP) is in minimum hours or I'd work it out myself.
Just curious if there is a point where the price-gap closes with the addition of a single extra rating or not. For instance if NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) hours only count at 10% you would spend more altogether for your first additional rating going that route.
Well, sticking a wet finger in the air, and using the same numbers, I'd say:
NPPL(M) - between 3-axis and flexwing, about 12 hours at £95/hr = £1140
NPPL(M)-NPPL(SEP), about 15 hours at £125/hr=£1875 + £95 skills test = £1970
NPPL(SEP)-JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), about the same again.
So, if you want to go for a complete set, in the order NPPL(M), flexwings --> NPPL(M) 3-axis, NPPL(SEP), JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), you'd be looking at a total bill of about £8k, (plus, which I forgot to put in before, licence issue costs to the CAA). Not a bad way of going about it!
G
NPPL(M) - between 3-axis and flexwing, about 12 hours at £95/hr = £1140
NPPL(M)-NPPL(SEP), about 15 hours at £125/hr=£1875 + £95 skills test = £1970
NPPL(SEP)-JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), about the same again.
So, if you want to go for a complete set, in the order NPPL(M), flexwings --> NPPL(M) 3-axis, NPPL(SEP), JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), you'd be looking at a total bill of about £8k, (plus, which I forgot to put in before, licence issue costs to the CAA). Not a bad way of going about it!
G
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Nice set of figures but a bit “cart before horse”. Buy the Rans, and learn to fly on it (perfectly legal). There are many instructors who will train you on your own machine (check who is available and take one with you before you buy). This will bring the cost down a lot. When I wanted to get checked out on my MCR, I had 5 instructors offering to do it foc, and £10 an hour cash will work in my area.
When you have learned on the aircraft, if you are short of funds, sell 4 shares in her.
Rod1
When you have learned on the aircraft, if you are short of funds, sell 4 shares in her.
Rod1
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So, if you want to go for a complete set, in the order NPPL(M), flexwings --> NPPL(M) 3-axis, NPPL(SEP), JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), you'd be looking at a total bill of about £8k, (plus, which I forgot to put in before, licence issue costs to the CAA). Not a bad way of going about it!
Being confined to the UK while flying Group A then motivated me to convert to the JAR PPL, coupled with the desire to join a friend's N-reg group which meant getting something to base an FAA licence on - all things that fit under the 'flexibility' heading in rustle's excellent summary earlier in this thread.
If you had a flexwing microlight licence and then wanted to add an extra rating in the sense of night, IMC, twin, IR etc., then clearly you'd have a large extra cost to bear since you'd need the JAR PPL as a minimum. If you wanted to add even the simplest extra 'rating', the Night Qualification, there would be nothing to gain by doing the NPPL SSEA along the way since it doesn't support the qualification you're after and still costs you money for examiner's test and CAA licence issue fees. You would need to plunge straight into the JAR PPL.
In the very best case you'd get 10 hours credit for your microlight experience (10% of your total, limited to a maximum of 10 hours) and you'd be well-placed to pass in the minimum time since you should already be comfortable with navigation, radio and so on. Depending on the time of year, you might be able to gain the night qualification during the course too, so let's say a best case of 35 extra hours (plus Class II medical costs) for a 100 hr+ flexwing pilot to get a night qualification and the appropriate licence to attach it to.
Of course, on the aircraft ownership side, most of the extra ratings will mean that you can't use a PFA aircraft to exercise them, so you'll have to raid the bank account again for a CofA, FAA or similar machine.
If I'd known when I started that I'd want to end up flying internationally in a Group A aircraft it would have been more cost-effective to have gone straight for the JAR licence, but for me it was a case of wanting to dip my toe in the water without too much outlay (it cost me about £2,500 all in in 2001 for the old-style microlight licence) and then paying extra to add extra flexibility from there.
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I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.
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I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.
Wulf, I very much doubt any nppl school would sell themselves saying you can pass a GST in min hours, just as if any ppl school would.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.
Wulf, I very much doubt any nppl school would sell themselves saying you can pass a GST in min hours, just as if any ppl school would.
Originally Posted by wulf190a
I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Originally Posted by Genghis, 10 days earlier
(Almost) nobody learns in minimum hours - let's assume 20% over the minimum - so that's 54hrs for a JAR-PPL(SEP), 38.4hrs for an NPPL(SEP) or 30 hrs for an NPPL(M).
It's okay, I've been ignored before. Quite used to it in fact.
G
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I do no subscribe to the “cannot be done in min hours” argument. I accept it cannot be done in min hours at 1 hour a week. If the min is 45 hours it is hard for an ordinary working person to do an intensive course without risking divorce. 25 hours is however achievable in 9 days (five days holiday and two weekends). If this approach is used it would be possible to get down to min hours.
I did both the night and the IMCR in min hours using a similar idea.
Rod1
I did both the night and the IMCR in min hours using a similar idea.
Rod1
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I quite agree Rod.
I did my GFT in min dual plus 2 hours of the min solo. I then had to wrack up the rest of the solo hours and QXCs before I could send my license application off.
I did it all in 3 months, through the winter.
If you are doing 1 hour a month, 30-40 hours would be about right. If you are doing 2-3 hours a week, it is all so fresh in your mind that you move along very quickly.
The comments about the lack of bolt on rating to NPPL SSEA are correct, but that may well change now that EASA are rolling out a pan EU version of it. It should be live in 2009 and will be accepted across all EU states. One of the main reasons for getting a JAR (as Fly Stim pointed out) is the SSEA is UK only at the moment.
NPPL(M) is accepted almost everywhere in EU land except Ireland.
I did my GFT in min dual plus 2 hours of the min solo. I then had to wrack up the rest of the solo hours and QXCs before I could send my license application off.
I did it all in 3 months, through the winter.
If you are doing 1 hour a month, 30-40 hours would be about right. If you are doing 2-3 hours a week, it is all so fresh in your mind that you move along very quickly.
The comments about the lack of bolt on rating to NPPL SSEA are correct, but that may well change now that EASA are rolling out a pan EU version of it. It should be live in 2009 and will be accepted across all EU states. One of the main reasons for getting a JAR (as Fly Stim pointed out) is the SSEA is UK only at the moment.
NPPL(M) is accepted almost everywhere in EU land except Ireland.