Another "is it legal" question....Landing in the open?
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Another "is it legal" question....Landing in the open?
Have done a search on this one and havn't shown up much....
Was just a hyperthetical thought that popped into my mind....
I live very close to the welsh mountains and fly over/through them regularly...(ppl(H))
Is it legal to land (providing its safe to do so) on the open moorland in the mountains for an hour or so to have a picnic? [I have identified a site which is open, flat and smooth (in the lower foothills) and should be uneffected by mountain winds...also the time I plan to go there shouldnt be anyone around]..The area is used a lot by 4x4's at the weekends so its not like I will be adding any more polution or erosion etc..
Obviously getting a non-start would not be a good idea in the mountains and watching the weather would be important...
The only other thing that was of a slight concern would be other aircraft flying overhead....would they assume a forced landing and call for help due to the heli being parked in such an exposed and unusual location?
The only reason I was even thinking this atall was that im contemplating popping the question to my ladyfiend and this picnic in the mountains sounds like a good idea in my head...
Was just a hyperthetical thought that popped into my mind....
I live very close to the welsh mountains and fly over/through them regularly...(ppl(H))
Is it legal to land (providing its safe to do so) on the open moorland in the mountains for an hour or so to have a picnic? [I have identified a site which is open, flat and smooth (in the lower foothills) and should be uneffected by mountain winds...also the time I plan to go there shouldnt be anyone around]..The area is used a lot by 4x4's at the weekends so its not like I will be adding any more polution or erosion etc..
Obviously getting a non-start would not be a good idea in the mountains and watching the weather would be important...
The only other thing that was of a slight concern would be other aircraft flying overhead....would they assume a forced landing and call for help due to the heli being parked in such an exposed and unusual location?
The only reason I was even thinking this atall was that im contemplating popping the question to my ladyfiend and this picnic in the mountains sounds like a good idea in my head...
Offhand, I think that if you do no damage and the area isn't specifically fenced off for private use then...
England - no (But you'd be committing civil trespass, so committing no crime so long as you don't do any damage - you can just be ordered off by the landowner).
Scotland - yes.
But it would be worth checking the new "right to roam" legislation, which may make things easier in England.
G
England - no (But you'd be committing civil trespass, so committing no crime so long as you don't do any damage - you can just be ordered off by the landowner).
Scotland - yes.
But it would be worth checking the new "right to roam" legislation, which may make things easier in England.
G
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This is the best way of doing it. Click Here..........
This video always brings a big smile to my face when I watch it..
This video always brings a big smile to my face when I watch it..
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I believe that landing in the open without causing damage is legal; microlight and glider drivers (and baloon botherers) do it all the time. It's landing not in the open that opens conflict with Rule 5 (or is Rule 6 now?)
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I have often thought the same while flying over the remote bits of the Pennines at 50 feet agl, but the equally remote possibility of not being able to start up again has always deterred me. I had a small problem recently which entailed an engineers visit to my home site and the bill for that was over £800 just for time and travel, so I hate to think what a visit to the trackless wastes would cost.
Good idea though and I doubt if anybody would even know let alone complain about it.
Good idea though and I doubt if anybody would even know let alone complain about it.
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Could be an embarrassing ride home if she says no. Or does she get a choice, engagement ring or SAS survival pack.
First of all, drive out to your proposed landing site and pace it out on foot.
Next, what kind of a/c do you plan to land there? Some are better on grass strips than others.
Remember to have a look at the vegetation and any obstacles on the takeoff path.
Density altitude can significantly diminish performance; so, calculate it and work out the takeoff length and initial climb rate.
It's much easier in a glider -- all we have to do is land and if the towplane driver is reluctant to try the landout site, we bring out the trailer
Next, what kind of a/c do you plan to land there? Some are better on grass strips than others.
Remember to have a look at the vegetation and any obstacles on the takeoff path.
Density altitude can significantly diminish performance; so, calculate it and work out the takeoff length and initial climb rate.
It's much easier in a glider -- all we have to do is land and if the towplane driver is reluctant to try the landout site, we bring out the trailer
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You need the permission of the land owner prior to landing ( unless it's an emergency landing of course).
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....
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Never mind all this permission & insurance stuff, get a couple of Apaches to go in first to check out the area, then go in with four Blackhawks full of Marines to secure the place while you have your picnic. Who is going to complain?
Last edited by Crash one; 5th Jun 2007 at 14:57.
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You need the permission of the land owner prior to landing ( unless it's an emergency landing of course).
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....
That usually comes up at some point in these discussions.
Where is the law that says you need the permission of the land owner prior to landing?
ANO? 
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Where are the lawyers when you need them?!
My readings in the past have suggested that the law of trespass applies to being on foot, horseback, vehicle or aircraft - needs no bit of ANO or ROTA, therefore.
Dunno about insurance for power planes, but emergency landings without PPR in gliders are covered by our insurance OK.
Once an aircraft has landed, the landowner can get quite sniffy - but if e.g. he/she says you can't take the aircraft/glider away again, it puts him/her into a position of having to look after it adequately, AIUI. All a bit messy if good relations are not preserved.
So my take (and most glider [pilots) is not to casually land on private property without PPR unless forced to, but then apologise, seek a reasonable way out (almost always OK in my experience) and pay compensation if asked for any damage. I once paid towards the local church restoration fund, as requested, even though there was no damage to the field - not worth leaving an upset farmer.
Anyone who just lands regardless of the normal courtesies is going to do much harm to the GA community reputation, IMHO.
Chris N.
My readings in the past have suggested that the law of trespass applies to being on foot, horseback, vehicle or aircraft - needs no bit of ANO or ROTA, therefore.
Dunno about insurance for power planes, but emergency landings without PPR in gliders are covered by our insurance OK.
Once an aircraft has landed, the landowner can get quite sniffy - but if e.g. he/she says you can't take the aircraft/glider away again, it puts him/her into a position of having to look after it adequately, AIUI. All a bit messy if good relations are not preserved.
So my take (and most glider [pilots) is not to casually land on private property without PPR unless forced to, but then apologise, seek a reasonable way out (almost always OK in my experience) and pay compensation if asked for any damage. I once paid towards the local church restoration fund, as requested, even though there was no damage to the field - not worth leaving an upset farmer.
Anyone who just lands regardless of the normal courtesies is going to do much harm to the GA community reputation, IMHO.
Chris N.
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This lawyer was in Berlin.
ChrisN has got it pretty much right. Glider pilots aren't normally trespassing because necessity (i.e. no choice) is a defence to trespass. For field landings we only have a choice of possible fields (if we've done it right), but no choice but to land in one of them.
If you could elect to stay flying, you're a trespasser. Assuming you don't cause damage to land or livestock, there's nothing to sue you for. However, the PR damage to GA is the real worry.
I'd suggest contacting the landowner and telling the romantic story - all the farmers I know are softies deep down, so I think you'd have a good chance. As you'll want to view the site on foot (gliders are designed to cope with rather more roughness in the terrain than powered GA, if what I read about the consequences of forced landings is correct) you can find out who that is. If you add that you're fully insured - and you have checked that out, havent you - that should cover all the farmer's concerns.
ChrisN has got it pretty much right. Glider pilots aren't normally trespassing because necessity (i.e. no choice) is a defence to trespass. For field landings we only have a choice of possible fields (if we've done it right), but no choice but to land in one of them.
If you could elect to stay flying, you're a trespasser. Assuming you don't cause damage to land or livestock, there's nothing to sue you for. However, the PR damage to GA is the real worry.
I'd suggest contacting the landowner and telling the romantic story - all the farmers I know are softies deep down, so I think you'd have a good chance. As you'll want to view the site on foot (gliders are designed to cope with rather more roughness in the terrain than powered GA, if what I read about the consequences of forced landings is correct) you can find out who that is. If you add that you're fully insured - and you have checked that out, havent you - that should cover all the farmer's concerns.
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We regularly land off-site in the North of England. Our favourite site is Hartside Cafe near Alston in Cumbria:
http://www.visitcumbria.com/pen/hartside.htm
We land just the other side of the road as seen from above. It can be a good introduction to mountain landings on windy days at 1900ft.
Bobby
http://www.visitcumbria.com/pen/hartside.htm
We land just the other side of the road as seen from above. It can be a good introduction to mountain landings on windy days at 1900ft.
Bobby
First of all, drive out to your proposed landing site and pace it out on foot.
Did he say he was in a helicopter?
Did he say he was in a helicopter?
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Be very very certain there are no livestock within a 2 mile radius or Farmer Brown could sue you for scaring 100 sheep over a precipice, losing all their lambs, the cows going dry etc etc.
And if it's near a racing stud your insurance cover wouldn't get anywhere close to paying for one of those stallions, and if you had landed deliberately your insurers would probably refuse liability anyway.
Glider pilots can plead necessity, can plead poverty "I can't even afford an engine" and do it quietly.
Helicopter pilots couldn't.
I would say minimum of PPR just to cover your a***
And if it's near a racing stud your insurance cover wouldn't get anywhere close to paying for one of those stallions, and if you had landed deliberately your insurers would probably refuse liability anyway.
Glider pilots can plead necessity, can plead poverty "I can't even afford an engine" and do it quietly.
Helicopter pilots couldn't.
I would say minimum of PPR just to cover your a***