Who can afford it?
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My girlfriend is a pilot. Weekends are spent around aeroplanes, airfields, flying clubs. Lots of flying together. Biggest issue is fighting for who is to be PIC.
But I can't complain, she wants to buy us our own aeroplane
But I can't complain, she wants to buy us our own aeroplane
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More than want to afford it...
Flying is more expensive than any other hobby I know. Averaged over ten years you'll be lucky to get minimal, license renewal hours, for less than 1700 a year. And that won't exactly be a wondrous experience - you'll be spending a lot of that just doing circuits and PFLs with sweaty palms trying to keep current.
The question is, what aspects of flying interest the average punter with some spare cash? I know most of the people on here are addicted to it, spending every CAVOK day God sends down at the airfield tinkering with their spam can or going on bimbles. But most people fit their hobbies around their lives, not the other way round.
Let's say we'd like to decide on a Friday evening to go away for an overnight trip to Cornwall, the Dales, northern France, wherever, without the hassles of motorways or airport security. Get up the next day, drive to the airfield with one or two companions, and do it. Back on Sunday evening (weather permitting). Sounds great, doesn't it? When I explain that to non-flyers, they get excited. If that were a realistic goal on sensible money, our airfields would be awash with people like me (late 20's/early 30's, some spare cash, penchant for travel etc.) So where are they? Well, the sad answer is it's no longer a realistic goal (if it ever was). That level of commitment means having a 1/10 share in a reasonable 4-seater, and the confidence to use it that comes from 30+ hours VFR per year. Add that to the amortized cost of the PPL, we're talking more like 5-7 grand a year. And you'll spend a lot of your time disappointing your companions (and yourself) because at short notice you discover/decide it's not safe to depart.
And you wonder where we all are? Sport car racing, yacht sailing, horse riding, a fondness for Michelin-starred restaurants, expensive cameras or games consoles, weekend city breaks, a fortnight per year in Whistler or Klosters in waist-deep powder [add your own 'expensive' hobby that feckless youngsters might indulge in here]. Whatever it is, it's probably MUCH cheaper than 6 grand a year. Add the bizarre, 1950's tea-and-biscuits-in-the-prefab atmosphere and, sadly, you have your answer.
:-(
The question is, what aspects of flying interest the average punter with some spare cash? I know most of the people on here are addicted to it, spending every CAVOK day God sends down at the airfield tinkering with their spam can or going on bimbles. But most people fit their hobbies around their lives, not the other way round.
Let's say we'd like to decide on a Friday evening to go away for an overnight trip to Cornwall, the Dales, northern France, wherever, without the hassles of motorways or airport security. Get up the next day, drive to the airfield with one or two companions, and do it. Back on Sunday evening (weather permitting). Sounds great, doesn't it? When I explain that to non-flyers, they get excited. If that were a realistic goal on sensible money, our airfields would be awash with people like me (late 20's/early 30's, some spare cash, penchant for travel etc.) So where are they? Well, the sad answer is it's no longer a realistic goal (if it ever was). That level of commitment means having a 1/10 share in a reasonable 4-seater, and the confidence to use it that comes from 30+ hours VFR per year. Add that to the amortized cost of the PPL, we're talking more like 5-7 grand a year. And you'll spend a lot of your time disappointing your companions (and yourself) because at short notice you discover/decide it's not safe to depart.
And you wonder where we all are? Sport car racing, yacht sailing, horse riding, a fondness for Michelin-starred restaurants, expensive cameras or games consoles, weekend city breaks, a fortnight per year in Whistler or Klosters in waist-deep powder [add your own 'expensive' hobby that feckless youngsters might indulge in here]. Whatever it is, it's probably MUCH cheaper than 6 grand a year. Add the bizarre, 1950's tea-and-biscuits-in-the-prefab atmosphere and, sadly, you have your answer.
:-(
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Flying is more expensive than any other hobby I know.
Just being a district councillor costs me lots more per year than flying, and for an MP (who typically takes a salary cut of tens of thousands of pounds on election) it's even worse!
The Original Whirly
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Well, I can't remember the exact figures now, but some years ago I compared what I spent on flying to how much a friend of mine who owned two horses spent on riding, and the horses cost more!
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It really ALL depends on the kind of flying you want to do.
Last year I flew 70 hours, visited lots of interesting places, had some nice weekends away, all for about £3000. That's 70 hours at £35ph, plus £600 for standing charges. (meals and accommodation away not included).
My 1/4 share of the aircraft cost £3450.
I think that's all pretty reasonable, and comparable with many other hobbies.
Yes, I'm limited to daylight VFR, and the aircraft is old and lives at a (delightful, if sometimes a bit muddy) farmstrip. It's all fine by me.
Last year I flew 70 hours, visited lots of interesting places, had some nice weekends away, all for about £3000. That's 70 hours at £35ph, plus £600 for standing charges. (meals and accommodation away not included).
My 1/4 share of the aircraft cost £3450.
I think that's all pretty reasonable, and comparable with many other hobbies.
Yes, I'm limited to daylight VFR, and the aircraft is old and lives at a (delightful, if sometimes a bit muddy) farmstrip. It's all fine by me.
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Well I don't consider myself rich; I got back into flying after a break of several years, after our mortgage was paid off; we worked like crazy and got it paid off when we were very young (35 years old to be precise) so I was still young enough to enjoy the hobby. I own 100% of my own aircraft, a very high time 1979 Beech Sundowner (aerobatic by the way), but it was in great shape, picked up at a government-run flying school (your tax dollars at work). It replaced a Cherokee 140 as I wanted more payload. Now that my kids are older and starting to leave the nest, I am looking at trading down to a two-seater like a C-150. I did own a Skipper alongside the Sundowner briefly, with the intent of selling the Sundowner, but I got a deal I couldn't refuse on the Skipper ($5500 more than I paid for it the year before, pays for a lot of gas...).
The first trick to flying is never ever own more aircraft than you need. My top limit was engraved in concrete: no more than 180 hp, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop. All to keep maintenance down. I also have a couple of buddies that fly with me. One is a pretty handy wrench, so he does a lot of the grunt work for me (supervised by the AME), in exchange for flying hours on my machine. This keeps maintenance costs down. Now I no longer really need 180 hp and 4 seats so I am looking at either trading down, or taking on a partner.
However I have to agree, this is by far the most expensive hobby; the only saving grace is that the toy's value is stable or increases over time, but the costs likely exceed that increase. My other hobby is collecting model trains and I can assure you that's a lot cheaper!!!
I do have to ration my flying. At 40 liters per hour and $1.50 per liter, that's a lot for fuel. I usually fly with mates who are willing to chip in for fuel. The rule of thumb: you will get invited for a ride once, but if you don't chip in for fuel, you won't be invited again. I make one exception to the rule, a retired chap in his '80s who was flight engineer on Halifax bombers in the war and had to sell his plane years ago (still has his medical though!). I figure I owe him, not the other way around. He had a multi-IFR rating so he's also fun to have a long, we always play at shooting some instrument approaches (in VMC of course...I have night and VFR on top ratings only).
Anyway I figure I'm good for a few more years yet, and if I downsize to a 100-115 hp two-seater I'll be in the air for quite a few more years, God and the Mrs. willing...
The first trick to flying is never ever own more aircraft than you need. My top limit was engraved in concrete: no more than 180 hp, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop. All to keep maintenance down. I also have a couple of buddies that fly with me. One is a pretty handy wrench, so he does a lot of the grunt work for me (supervised by the AME), in exchange for flying hours on my machine. This keeps maintenance costs down. Now I no longer really need 180 hp and 4 seats so I am looking at either trading down, or taking on a partner.
However I have to agree, this is by far the most expensive hobby; the only saving grace is that the toy's value is stable or increases over time, but the costs likely exceed that increase. My other hobby is collecting model trains and I can assure you that's a lot cheaper!!!
I do have to ration my flying. At 40 liters per hour and $1.50 per liter, that's a lot for fuel. I usually fly with mates who are willing to chip in for fuel. The rule of thumb: you will get invited for a ride once, but if you don't chip in for fuel, you won't be invited again. I make one exception to the rule, a retired chap in his '80s who was flight engineer on Halifax bombers in the war and had to sell his plane years ago (still has his medical though!). I figure I owe him, not the other way around. He had a multi-IFR rating so he's also fun to have a long, we always play at shooting some instrument approaches (in VMC of course...I have night and VFR on top ratings only).
Anyway I figure I'm good for a few more years yet, and if I downsize to a 100-115 hp two-seater I'll be in the air for quite a few more years, God and the Mrs. willing...
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I've never personally been into sailing, but anybody who thinks flying is expensive should try a bit of sailing, and not necessarily at the "gin palace" level. In fact, just popping into a boat shop and looking at the fuel flow rate of something that will get you from the UK to Jersey before you grow a beard will be quite a revelation! It may be "cheaper" diesel but it will make your eyes water to realise how many people spend £10,000 on fuel on a little powerboat jolly. Mind you, the swimsuit scene is probably a whole lot better than in GA 
I've said this before and got into hot water for it, but IMV the money is not the problem. Money (or lack of it) will determine whether somebody can (or can't) play in this game, but the cost of playing doesn't have much of an impact on whether (or how soon) people chuck it in.
What matters is the return you get, relative to the considerable hassle which aviation always carries with it.
IMV there are not all that many ways to maximise the return v. hassle ratio. One can aim to go places (which is why I learnt in the first place) or one can do aerobatics. There may be other effective ways but they escape me.
Certainly, anybody who thinks they will hang in there on self fly hire of some spamcan once or twice per month, to do a local bimble, is kidding themselves. He will be spending say £2000/year and all he will be getting is a bit of aerial view. After a bit, that gets boring. Yet, this is all a typical new product of the PPL training machine feels able to do - no wonder most pack it in more or less right away.
That's why I would advise anybody who enjoys flying to make a decent committment early on, and either buy their own plane or buy into a syndicate, get flying with other (experienced) pilots, and get firmly established in the process of learning how to go beyond the WW1 PPL syllabus. Do some real flying and leave the airport anorak scene behind (your partner will be rather grateful for that, too).
One also needs to work on hassle reduction and a purchase (outright or share) will help there too. You get better access to a better maintained machine.
Unless you are lucky to get a decent instructor, the PPL sausage machine will not help you. It has no business brief to turn out pilots; the #1 job is to get £8000 or whatever off everybody walking through the door. They also don't usually like people who have become experienced pilots hanging around - they might teach the new recruits "bad habits"... they also try to talk people out of committing early because they want you to keep self fly hiring their old heaps.
You have to get the basic training and the paperwork and then leave it all behind and move on.
And yes it can't be done for much less than a few k a year, if you want decent passenger carrying capability. It can be done for perhaps half that if you zoom around in an ultralight/LSA type but to me that seems a rather more lonely sort of flying.
Many people have thought about some kind of mentoring for new pilots. This is a great idea and I would very much like to do that too. I fly at least once a week and a lot of the time it's just a local flight for currency, so why not turn it into something worthwhile? However, many aircraft owners, myself included, can't do this except in the most discreat manner if there is a school at their airport; you soon get into conflict with the thick airport politics and losing one's hangarage etc (or worse) is just not worth it. You could do it only with pilots who have well and truly departed their school but most of those have already left the scene for good...
I've said this before and got into hot water for it, but IMV the money is not the problem. Money (or lack of it) will determine whether somebody can (or can't) play in this game, but the cost of playing doesn't have much of an impact on whether (or how soon) people chuck it in.
What matters is the return you get, relative to the considerable hassle which aviation always carries with it.
IMV there are not all that many ways to maximise the return v. hassle ratio. One can aim to go places (which is why I learnt in the first place) or one can do aerobatics. There may be other effective ways but they escape me.
Certainly, anybody who thinks they will hang in there on self fly hire of some spamcan once or twice per month, to do a local bimble, is kidding themselves. He will be spending say £2000/year and all he will be getting is a bit of aerial view. After a bit, that gets boring. Yet, this is all a typical new product of the PPL training machine feels able to do - no wonder most pack it in more or less right away.
That's why I would advise anybody who enjoys flying to make a decent committment early on, and either buy their own plane or buy into a syndicate, get flying with other (experienced) pilots, and get firmly established in the process of learning how to go beyond the WW1 PPL syllabus. Do some real flying and leave the airport anorak scene behind (your partner will be rather grateful for that, too).
One also needs to work on hassle reduction and a purchase (outright or share) will help there too. You get better access to a better maintained machine.
Unless you are lucky to get a decent instructor, the PPL sausage machine will not help you. It has no business brief to turn out pilots; the #1 job is to get £8000 or whatever off everybody walking through the door. They also don't usually like people who have become experienced pilots hanging around - they might teach the new recruits "bad habits"... they also try to talk people out of committing early because they want you to keep self fly hiring their old heaps.
You have to get the basic training and the paperwork and then leave it all behind and move on.
And yes it can't be done for much less than a few k a year, if you want decent passenger carrying capability. It can be done for perhaps half that if you zoom around in an ultralight/LSA type but to me that seems a rather more lonely sort of flying.
Many people have thought about some kind of mentoring for new pilots. This is a great idea and I would very much like to do that too. I fly at least once a week and a lot of the time it's just a local flight for currency, so why not turn it into something worthwhile? However, many aircraft owners, myself included, can't do this except in the most discreat manner if there is a school at their airport; you soon get into conflict with the thick airport politics and losing one's hangarage etc (or worse) is just not worth it. You could do it only with pilots who have well and truly departed their school but most of those have already left the scene for good...
The Original Whirly
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One can aim to go places (which is why I learnt in the first place) or one can do aerobatics.
1) Get together with another PPL (or several), find a school/club that will lend you an aircraft for a few hours, and do quite a lot of UK touring, trying new airfields, going to fly-ins etc. Half the money, half the work, twice the fun, and it'll keep you going for a couple of years at least, depending how often you fly.
2) Bimble till you get bored. It takes some people a while, even years, to get bored with boring holes in the local sky - and some never do. Then, having saved a bit of money, do an IMC and night rating...and take it from there.
3) Do a taildragger conversion and learn to fly lots of different aircraft.
4) Convert to microlights - lots cheaper, and quite a good social scene...though I wasn't involved in it for long enough to know much.
5) Bore holes in sky, build up hours, get to know about parachute jumping or gliding, and then you can tow gliders or drop jumpers - free flying, legally.
6) Get in touch with your local ATC. They're often desperate for instructors. If you can give up one day a week, usually at weekends, they'll train you for free, and you'll get loads of flying - usually in motor gliders.
7) Gradually get experience, then consider doing CPL exams and FI rating. If you take your time, look on it as useful experience, and don't put yourself under pressure, it's fairly enjoyable, and spread over time not all that expensive. The you can instruct in your spare time...and get paid!!!!!!!
8) Get involved at your local club/school. Some pay a bit for things like being an A/G operator, and you save the money and use it to fly. Not quite sure how it works, as I abandoned it after a few hours, but search around, and it could keep you airborne during times when cash is a problem.
9) Keep current, learn French (or other European languages), try to manage at least one European trip, and let it be known that you're willing to do continental trips with other pilots. Lots can't speak French, which means they can't fly into small airfields. I haven't tried it, but I bet you get a few trips that way.
10) Don't believe everything that yor flying instructor, local club, friends, IO540 or anyone else tells you (including me) - look around yourself and find out what's possible. And don't ever believe that you can't do it, whatever it is, if you want to.
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I don't disagree with that you say, WB, but quite a lot of the stuff you list goes under my heading of "going places".
Much of the rest requires a significant investment in time. This is fine if you have the time, and is a very admirable contribution, but most people who can fund this hobby have to work to pay for it and don't have all that much time. And those with time tend to have no money. Such is life!
Much of the rest requires a significant investment in time. This is fine if you have the time, and is a very admirable contribution, but most people who can fund this hobby have to work to pay for it and don't have all that much time. And those with time tend to have no money. Such is life!
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Just my little story....
Back in the day (mid 90's that it) when I was a teen, I used be a hangar rat (aka pain in the backside) and somehow managed to wangle a deal with my local flying club over at Manston that I would get 10mins of dual flying for every aeroplane I washed and 5 mins for the boss' car.
Over about 3-4 years of making a nuisance of myself I managed to wash my way to a PPL (the only time I had to shell out cash was for the test fees). I also got loads of backseat rides (I think the school wanted to get rid of me for a few hours!) including a few in a Yak-52 and L-29, which for an aviation obsessed young man was pure heaven. Just being around a busy school with so many friendly people means I learn a lot about flying from osmosis.
I still look back on those crazy days and I'm forever thankful to those folks (I could never afford to get into flying otherwise). Unfortunately life got in the way (uni etc) so I haven't flown much since, but now I'm living in the US (many people would still consider me a pain in the backside) and can afford to get back in the sky again!
I'm not sure if there's a moral to this story, but I'm in a typing mood!
Gareth.
Back in the day (mid 90's that it) when I was a teen, I used be a hangar rat (aka pain in the backside) and somehow managed to wangle a deal with my local flying club over at Manston that I would get 10mins of dual flying for every aeroplane I washed and 5 mins for the boss' car.
Over about 3-4 years of making a nuisance of myself I managed to wash my way to a PPL (the only time I had to shell out cash was for the test fees). I also got loads of backseat rides (I think the school wanted to get rid of me for a few hours!) including a few in a Yak-52 and L-29, which for an aviation obsessed young man was pure heaven. Just being around a busy school with so many friendly people means I learn a lot about flying from osmosis.
I still look back on those crazy days and I'm forever thankful to those folks (I could never afford to get into flying otherwise). Unfortunately life got in the way (uni etc) so I haven't flown much since, but now I'm living in the US (many people would still consider me a pain in the backside) and can afford to get back in the sky again!
I'm not sure if there's a moral to this story, but I'm in a typing mood!
Gareth.
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Good for you Gfunc, and thanks for taking the time to tell the tale. With all the horror stories we hear every month in aviation with folks getting ripped off, not to mention people always mouthing the phrase' Not everyone in Aviation is a crook, but all crooks are in aviation', its good to hear about the decent guys out there.
Thanks for re-enforcing my faith in human nature a little
For me, I fly whatever machine I can afford. When I was on lower pay, I did PPL(A), now I make more money, I get my kicks from (H). If the share options ever come in big time, hopefully it'll be turbine powered (H), but hey, you get the drift. If it all went to rats, I'd look at microlites and wearing a sleeping bag to go fly. I'd enjoy it to I bet.
Horses for very fun courses is all.
Thanks for re-enforcing my faith in human nature a little
For me, I fly whatever machine I can afford. When I was on lower pay, I did PPL(A), now I make more money, I get my kicks from (H). If the share options ever come in big time, hopefully it'll be turbine powered (H), but hey, you get the drift. If it all went to rats, I'd look at microlites and wearing a sleeping bag to go fly. I'd enjoy it to I bet.
Horses for very fun courses is all.
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All the chat about how expensive aeroplanes, boats and wives/divorces are reminds me of the old aphorism:
"If it fly's, float's or f*ck's.... it's cheaper to rent!"
My experience is supportive of this proposition.
"If it fly's, float's or f*ck's.... it's cheaper to rent!"
My experience is supportive of this proposition.
Whirlybird
Saw you bit on owning horses.
Some of the rules applying to cheap aviation apply to horses.
You can spend as much or as little as you want.
We had at one time no less than 6 of the afore mentioned wooden headed dinosaurs. We used to compete at National carriage driving championships.
What did it did it all cost?
Well we moved to a cheap part of the country and bought a house with some land. Therefore hangarage and fuel was free! Local farmer cut and bailed hay for minimal cost, fuel for winter operations also free!!!!!!!
Cost of vets and wormers £200 year.
Shoes for competion ponies £150 year.
Cost of competitions, entry fee and diesel for a clapped out Vauxhall Victor Estate towing a horse trailer.
We were competitive in our class (pony tandem) and all done on a shoestring.
Fun bit was pitching the tent in the pitch dark and waking up to find ourselves between the Duke of Edinburgh and Alan Bristow with their articulated lorry boxes and associated support vehicles.
If you really want expense try motor yachts. Went to look at a 206 parked on the back of one in Monaco harbour. Commented on the cost.
Told that it was nothing compared with the cost of the boat. They had just spent $250,000 on a top overhaul for it's diesels. Throw in a fair sized crew and you can burn cash faster than David Beckham can earn it.
Saw you bit on owning horses.
Some of the rules applying to cheap aviation apply to horses.
You can spend as much or as little as you want.
We had at one time no less than 6 of the afore mentioned wooden headed dinosaurs. We used to compete at National carriage driving championships.
What did it did it all cost?
Well we moved to a cheap part of the country and bought a house with some land. Therefore hangarage and fuel was free! Local farmer cut and bailed hay for minimal cost, fuel for winter operations also free!!!!!!!
Cost of vets and wormers £200 year.
Shoes for competion ponies £150 year.
Cost of competitions, entry fee and diesel for a clapped out Vauxhall Victor Estate towing a horse trailer.
We were competitive in our class (pony tandem) and all done on a shoestring.
Fun bit was pitching the tent in the pitch dark and waking up to find ourselves between the Duke of Edinburgh and Alan Bristow with their articulated lorry boxes and associated support vehicles.
If you really want expense try motor yachts. Went to look at a 206 parked on the back of one in Monaco harbour. Commented on the cost.
Told that it was nothing compared with the cost of the boat. They had just spent $250,000 on a top overhaul for it's diesels. Throw in a fair sized crew and you can burn cash faster than David Beckham can earn it.
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As an ex husband of a horse-mad female I can confirm there are many similarities between planes and horses; some of them quite funny..
OVC002 - I am sure you would be very accurate if one could indeed (easily) rent something that looks like it will last the flight
OVC002 - I am sure you would be very accurate if one could indeed (easily) rent something that looks like it will last the flight
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My Rans S6 cost the same as a car/good motorbike and ongoing it's:
£590PA to insure
£180 average PA for a permit/maintenance.
Burning 14 litres per hour of unleaded.
The most expensive bit is Hangerage in the S/East @ £900PA
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
£590PA to insure
£180 average PA for a permit/maintenance.
Burning 14 litres per hour of unleaded.
The most expensive bit is Hangerage in the S/East @ £900PA
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
The most common similarity between the horse and aviation world is the poser.
The number of aircraft that sit in hangars flying for little more than maintenance flights every year just so the owner can boast of "having his own aircraft".
The horse equivalent sits in the stables at enormous expense, never ridden yet the owner (always female) has enough tack to open an internet warehouse.
The main difference is that the horse owner actually loves her horse even if she can't ride for toffee. Whereas the aircraft owner(always male) apears to have no interest in the aircraft or flying.
Worst case I saw was a brand new Hughes 500 3 years old with 49 hours total time. Most of that being ferry time.
The number of aircraft that sit in hangars flying for little more than maintenance flights every year just so the owner can boast of "having his own aircraft".
The horse equivalent sits in the stables at enormous expense, never ridden yet the owner (always female) has enough tack to open an internet warehouse.
The main difference is that the horse owner actually loves her horse even if she can't ride for toffee. Whereas the aircraft owner(always male) apears to have no interest in the aircraft or flying.
Worst case I saw was a brand new Hughes 500 3 years old with 49 hours total time. Most of that being ferry time.