PPL flying a 747
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 43
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
777 thanks for the info.
So if you're approaching the end of the descent and are currently at 280kts and you are in LNAV, VNAV and A/T is engaged and the speed at the next waypoint is set to 180kts on the legs page of the FMC for example, then would the aircraft slow down to 180kts regardless of flap setting?
Thanks
Ed
So if you're approaching the end of the descent and are currently at 280kts and you are in LNAV, VNAV and A/T is engaged and the speed at the next waypoint is set to 180kts on the legs page of the FMC for example, then would the aircraft slow down to 180kts regardless of flap setting?
Thanks
Ed
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if you're approaching the end of the descent and are currently at 280kts and you are in LNAV, VNAV and A/T is engaged and the speed at the next waypoint is set to 180kts on the legs page of the FMC for example, then would the aircraft slow down to 180kts regardless of flap setting?
To answer the question, from my student-pilot perspective, I think the answer is no. Firstly, I suspect the information overload would be absolutely overwhelming. 'Stick and rudder' flight, Krypton-Factor style, is one thing. Yes you could possible fudge an approach if you had some numbers and a bit of luck - but a correctly configured and situated approach isn't what we're talking about. My opinion is that you'd struggle with everything beyond sitting down.
- How would you know what status the aircraft's automatics were in?
- How would you even start to describe these in such a way a trained person would not make incorrect assumptions?
- How would you communicate? I don't even know where the transmit button is on a heavy - I'm guessing the yoke?
- A trained crew's workload gets heavier the closer they get to the airport - how would an untrained person and an a trained individual on the ground work together?
James
Originally Posted by slim_slag
...if the whole route including the approach is programmed in early enough, and ATC clears the way, the computer will put you on the ground on a runway?...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlantic
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole question is akin to "how long is a piece of string". The experience level of PPL's is so diverse. A good PPL with good aptitude should have no problem handling a 747 after a short period of time. However, being able to manipulate FMS's and the other automated systems would probably take a whole lot longer. If a successful landing is one in which there was no loss of life, in manual configuration it would be highly possible with the above reservations.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having read the explanations here, I still don't see why a competent non 747 type rated (I am avoiding the term "PPL" because it covers such a vast spectrum) private pilot should not be able to hand fly a 747.
People suggest it will be all over the place but most spamcans are all over the place anyway, and the Tomahawk is much worse still. I know about the "coffin corner" but if you can find a way to disconnect the auto throttle then you can slow down, no? Anyway, at say 250-300kt the thing should be perfectly hand flyable.
People suggest it will be all over the place but most spamcans are all over the place anyway, and the Tomahawk is much worse still. I know about the "coffin corner" but if you can find a way to disconnect the auto throttle then you can slow down, no? Anyway, at say 250-300kt the thing should be perfectly hand flyable.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry, there's just no way a ppl could hand fly a 747, or any other jet airliner for that matter, from cruise to landing. I posed this question to a captain i was flying with just 2 days ago after reading this post and we discussed it for a while and even talked about the whole disconnection of the a/p accidentaly and actually if this happened it wouldn't be a massive problem initally, and to prove it we disconnected the a/p in the cruise an no great shakes, a ppl would be more than capable of flying the A/H straight and level with the auto throttles taking care of the speed, but that would be it, it's just to far removed from a light aircraft with everything ahppening 10 times as quick...things would go very wrong very quickly...as stated in most of the above posts, keep in the a/p and auto land would be the best bet, even we would do this if we found ourselves on our own, god forbid...
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ireland ,Rep. of
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry, there's just no way a ppl could hand fly a 747, or any other jet airliner for that matter,
hmm, i just wondering how the four hi-jackers managed to fly jetliners on 9/11.
o.k. they didn't land but they did manage to fly them into the twin towers and the pentagon.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it's just to far removed from a light aircraft with everything ahppening 10 times as quick
It's that sort of statement which makes me wonder... I never knew a 747 did 1000-2000kt. If it can, no wonder it needs the autopilot!
I'd say the 9/11 hijackers flew pretty accurately. Not bad for some sim time, and zero currency on type.
What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes).
It's that sort of statement which makes me wonder... I never knew a 747 did 1000-2000kt. If it can, no wonder it needs the autopilot!
I'd say the 9/11 hijackers flew pretty accurately. Not bad for some sim time, and zero currency on type.
What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes).
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dry bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look guys, you are just gonna have to start believing what the majority of the jet pilots who posted are saying. Flying any airliner whether it be a 50 seat regional jet to a 500 seater heavy has little in common with a light aircraft. I remember thinking 'piece of cake' I have flown high performance twins/ turbo singles etc. I was wrong, it was'nt a piece of cake at all, its an entirely different experience. It takes quite alot of time to get used to the differences. Some of you mention how the speeds involved are comparable to a jet. Yes maybe you can get a 200kt groundspeed in your piston single, so what? Yesterday I saw a steady groundspeed of 560kts, thats almost 3 times your brief flirt at an unlikely 200!! How does this compare? Ok that was a bit cheap, but I could'nt resist making the comparison 
! Controlling the flight path of your piston performer may require a certain degree of skill no doubt, but regretfully, applying those skills in an unfamiliar environment requiring 2 pilots is gonna leave you more than short!
! Controlling the flight path of your piston performer may require a certain degree of skill no doubt, but regretfully, applying those skills in an unfamiliar environment requiring 2 pilots is gonna leave you more than short!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shaun - the reason I bang on about this "comparison" is that it isn't valid.
I might fly in the terminal area at 200+kt GS (I actually have a photo of my KMD550 showing 211kt - PM me with your email address if you don't believe me) but that's because there is nothing to it, and ATC like it at big airports.
But one would not be flying an ILS at 500kt. One would not be anywhere near 500kt anywhere near anywhere where one might try to land.
The reason people fly spamcans flat out all the way to short final is because most of the things can't do much more than ~100kt no matter what. In a 150kt plane you have to slow down a bit; well maybe down to 130kt if coming into Stapleford
In a 747 you would slow down a LOT; down to say 250kt.
What I would like to know is exactly what makes a 747 not possible to hand fly at 250kt.
I might fly in the terminal area at 200+kt GS (I actually have a photo of my KMD550 showing 211kt - PM me with your email address if you don't believe me) but that's because there is nothing to it, and ATC like it at big airports.
But one would not be flying an ILS at 500kt. One would not be anywhere near 500kt anywhere near anywhere where one might try to land.
The reason people fly spamcans flat out all the way to short final is because most of the things can't do much more than ~100kt no matter what. In a 150kt plane you have to slow down a bit; well maybe down to 130kt if coming into Stapleford
In a 747 you would slow down a LOT; down to say 250kt.What I would like to know is exactly what makes a 747 not possible to hand fly at 250kt.
Quote IO540: What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes).
You have had it. I have 747 2/3/400 and FI ratings. And other Boeing pilots have contributed. In our opinions, anone getting a 747-400 (400 only, it is several professional pilot's view that the 2/300 would be too difficult) on the ground would only be achieved if the automatics were left in and the flight deck occupant was carefully talked down. Holding a PPL would probably lead that person into a false sense of security and a belief he could hand fly the thing - the opinion of the professionals is that this would be disasterous.
Sure a PPL could probably hand fly it at 250 knots. It may not be accurate but it would be flying. But what then? Would he have the ability or the capacity to get it into a position where he could safely land it? On VFR approach in CAVOK conditions, he may be lucky enough to line up on finals, but getting it into a position at 200' on a 3 degree glidepath in the landing configuration at something close to VAT - now we're starting to talk very lucky indeed.
In answer to other questions:
How would you know the automatics are in? If it's still flying when you get on the flight deck, they're in!
Where's the transmit button? It's on the yolk. But it's not the first button you see, its on the front and the one you see first? Well, - that one's the autopilot disconnect!!!!!! There are up to two others depending on the customers specification, but they won't necessarily be obvious. If the occupant has seen the 'Dukes of Hazard' and remembers seeing Boss Hog pick up the hand mic to speak to someone on the radio, he will instinctively use the hand mic. This should work and prevent the disasterous autopilot disconnection.
How do you slow down? The Boeing does not slow down on FMC speeds alone (the Airbus will, provided the approach has been activated). You have to interrupt with speeds selections on the autopilot.
And could a non rated pilot do this? If the flight deck occupant follows instructions carefully, yes. Refer to my rather long post about talking Winterland junior down.
You have had it. I have 747 2/3/400 and FI ratings. And other Boeing pilots have contributed. In our opinions, anone getting a 747-400 (400 only, it is several professional pilot's view that the 2/300 would be too difficult) on the ground would only be achieved if the automatics were left in and the flight deck occupant was carefully talked down. Holding a PPL would probably lead that person into a false sense of security and a belief he could hand fly the thing - the opinion of the professionals is that this would be disasterous.
Sure a PPL could probably hand fly it at 250 knots. It may not be accurate but it would be flying. But what then? Would he have the ability or the capacity to get it into a position where he could safely land it? On VFR approach in CAVOK conditions, he may be lucky enough to line up on finals, but getting it into a position at 200' on a 3 degree glidepath in the landing configuration at something close to VAT - now we're starting to talk very lucky indeed.
In answer to other questions:
How would you know the automatics are in? If it's still flying when you get on the flight deck, they're in!
Where's the transmit button? It's on the yolk. But it's not the first button you see, its on the front and the one you see first? Well, - that one's the autopilot disconnect!!!!!! There are up to two others depending on the customers specification, but they won't necessarily be obvious. If the occupant has seen the 'Dukes of Hazard' and remembers seeing Boss Hog pick up the hand mic to speak to someone on the radio, he will instinctively use the hand mic. This should work and prevent the disasterous autopilot disconnection.
How do you slow down? The Boeing does not slow down on FMC speeds alone (the Airbus will, provided the approach has been activated). You have to interrupt with speeds selections on the autopilot.
And could a non rated pilot do this? If the flight deck occupant follows instructions carefully, yes. Refer to my rather long post about talking Winterland junior down.
I can't help feeling this is really a "how long is a piece of string". Obviously a PPL can, with a bit of training, fly a 747 successfully. The proof is that all 747captains fit this profile (for a suitable value of "a bit", of course). At least in the US, every flying career starts with a PPL. Can a 60-hr newly-minted PPL do it, completely unprepared and untrained? Common sense (and a bunch of 747 captains here) say not. So what really is the question? I thought I'd chime in with my own experience, fwiw.
Of my ~1013 hours as of today, 1011 are in single-engine spam-cans of one kind or another - about half in my TR182, ~100 in the Pitts, ~200 in 172s, and the rest in various things. I also have 1.3 hrs in an L39 and 0.5 hrs in a B-25 (the WWII bomber). Both of the latter were a piece of cake to fly, including landing. Of course I was with an instructor in both cases. It took a few minutes to get the feel of it but no more than any other type - MUCH easier than the Pitts, which still gives me a few seconds of latent terror on every landing. Given an hour or so to fly the thing round, get a feel for the handling, and figure out where everything is, I wouldn't worry about landing anything up to B-25 size. (Well, yes, I would worry, but I think it could be done). How different is a 747? For sure the complexity of the systems is at a whole 'nother level. Maybe, as someone suggested, it would run out of fuel in the right places while our putative 1000 hr PPL was having fun with airwork, due to lack of understanding of the fuel systems. I'd guess that a 747 is reasonably stable to fly (compared, say, to a 172 or indeed the Pitts)? So if you didn't lose it to PIO in the first couple of minutes, getting TO an airport is probably doable. What remains is to do a reasonable job of flying the glideslope and managing the engines.
Would be fun to try in a proper sim, anyway. (I never have got the hang of PC flight sims, I'd much rather land the Pitts for real than try to get a 172 on an Edwards-sized runway in MSFS).
n5296s
Of my ~1013 hours as of today, 1011 are in single-engine spam-cans of one kind or another - about half in my TR182, ~100 in the Pitts, ~200 in 172s, and the rest in various things. I also have 1.3 hrs in an L39 and 0.5 hrs in a B-25 (the WWII bomber). Both of the latter were a piece of cake to fly, including landing. Of course I was with an instructor in both cases. It took a few minutes to get the feel of it but no more than any other type - MUCH easier than the Pitts, which still gives me a few seconds of latent terror on every landing. Given an hour or so to fly the thing round, get a feel for the handling, and figure out where everything is, I wouldn't worry about landing anything up to B-25 size. (Well, yes, I would worry, but I think it could be done). How different is a 747? For sure the complexity of the systems is at a whole 'nother level. Maybe, as someone suggested, it would run out of fuel in the right places while our putative 1000 hr PPL was having fun with airwork, due to lack of understanding of the fuel systems. I'd guess that a 747 is reasonably stable to fly (compared, say, to a 172 or indeed the Pitts)? So if you didn't lose it to PIO in the first couple of minutes, getting TO an airport is probably doable. What remains is to do a reasonable job of flying the glideslope and managing the engines.
Would be fun to try in a proper sim, anyway. (I never have got the hang of PC flight sims, I'd much rather land the Pitts for real than try to get a 172 on an Edwards-sized runway in MSFS).
n5296s
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would be fun to try in a proper sim, anyway
It is done routinely in PC sims, and they are generally not that bad.
Depends on how many hours you have on the sim, I suppose. Many "kids" these days have hundreds or even thousands of hours on sims, and many know the systems pretty well.
It is done routinely in PC sims, and they are generally not that bad.
Depends on how many hours you have on the sim, I suppose. Many "kids" these days have hundreds or even thousands of hours on sims, and many know the systems pretty well.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Put most single engine PPLs in a light piston twin for the first time and leave then alone, and there is a good chance you will not make the runway or if you do, the nose wheel will end up inside the airframe. In fact, I'd say most PPLs would stuff up landing a heavier single like a PA28-236 the first time if they had never flown one before.
Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.
Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlantic
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Slim Slag
Maybe you should read the original post again. There was no mention of single engine, only the question of PPL.
Many years ago I had the fortunate opportunity to have a go in a 747-400 sim, this was when I was a PPL with around 2,000 hrs SE&ME. Although the "flight" had some of the characteristics of a drunken whale, I managed several circuits and landings on various runways at JFK, a visual into Kai Tak and a landing in Sonderstrom Fjord. I neither crashed or bent the aircraft, and, a friend had the same experience. This was achieved with a highly competent 747 captain who only gave preflight advice and gave no assistance during the flight except for nav guidance. The understanding was that the sim would be frozen if the flight looked in jeopardy as to crash a sim of that caliber can be dangerous and expensive.
Many years ago I had the fortunate opportunity to have a go in a 747-400 sim, this was when I was a PPL with around 2,000 hrs SE&ME. Although the "flight" had some of the characteristics of a drunken whale, I managed several circuits and landings on various runways at JFK, a visual into Kai Tak and a landing in Sonderstrom Fjord. I neither crashed or bent the aircraft, and, a friend had the same experience. This was achieved with a highly competent 747 captain who only gave preflight advice and gave no assistance during the flight except for nav guidance. The understanding was that the sim would be frozen if the flight looked in jeopardy as to crash a sim of that caliber can be dangerous and expensive.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thread moved on falconfreak. And a hearty 'well done' from me, however if I knew the pilots were dead and you were up front hand flying the thing I wouldn't be drinking the duty free gin, I'd be injecting it 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlantic
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And regreting it no doubt on our safe return to terra firma, if you read between the lines my freind, my life, as many, has moved on now and I have had the pleasure to bring a few PPL's into the jet world with no bad experiences. A PPL is a pilot, the only restriction being hire and reward not competance.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't said anything about PPL competance, only experience in type. Currency if you like. You don't need to read between the lines in my post, what I said is perfectly clear.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlantic
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slim Slag
You Said:
Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.
I am only posing the question, why the heck should they not be able to? Having not flown a piston aircraft for about 10 years, I am more apprehensive about jumping into a single than a new type of jet. Anyway bored now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, safe flying.
Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.
I am only posing the question, why the heck should they not be able to? Having not flown a piston aircraft for about 10 years, I am more apprehensive about jumping into a single than a new type of jet. Anyway bored now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, safe flying.