PPL flying a 747
nobody would (in that situation) be trying to set things up for a Cat 3C approach
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Floppy - I would challenge you to work out how to configure my "simple" TB20 autopilot to fly a coupled ILS, and this statement is true even if you were a current serving Boeing or Airbus captain. And yes I have tried it with both types and neither could work it out. They didn't have much trouble, but neither had the slightest hope of working it out for themselves. Simple, but much too equipment specific.
Somebody less than fully trained would have absolutely zero chance of working out how to set it up.
Manually, on a good day, can't see why a visual landing could not be pulled off by somebody not type rated.
Somebody less than fully trained would have absolutely zero chance of working out how to set it up.
Manually, on a good day, can't see why a visual landing could not be pulled off by somebody not type rated.
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And if it's a true emergency, remember that you as the substitute pilot get to pick the field, straight into the wind, with a long runway and cavok conditions, if fuel allows. If you land the plane then that's good enough for everybody. It doesn't have to be at the right airport, on schedule.
You'll be on a discrete emergency frequency and I'm pretty sure ATC will find you a nice and friendly type-rated captain to talk you through everything. With a bit of luck you'll have a chase plane next to you to visually guide you to the approach path, and to provide moral support. No speed limits or other restrictions will apply so you can intercept the ILS (or let the A/P intercept the ILS) at 10.000 feet if necessary, while in the approach configuration & at approach speed.
And if you can't see the runway, look for flashing blue lights. The runway will be next to them.
Biggest problem that I would see in a cavok, light wind, manual approach & landing is judging at what height to flare and how much.
You'll be on a discrete emergency frequency and I'm pretty sure ATC will find you a nice and friendly type-rated captain to talk you through everything. With a bit of luck you'll have a chase plane next to you to visually guide you to the approach path, and to provide moral support. No speed limits or other restrictions will apply so you can intercept the ILS (or let the A/P intercept the ILS) at 10.000 feet if necessary, while in the approach configuration & at approach speed.
And if you can't see the runway, look for flashing blue lights. The runway will be next to them.
Biggest problem that I would see in a cavok, light wind, manual approach & landing is judging at what height to flare and how much.
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My first landing in something very similiar was in a professional sim, the first approach was into Gatwick and I had about ten minutes briefing before. That landing wasnt pretty but the aircraft stayed on the runway, the undercarriage survived and everyone would have walked away - so I suppose on the basis it was a good landing. So yes it is quite possible - but perhaps with a little help.
For most PPL the hardest aspect to cope with is that the aircraft reacts a great deal more slowly to changes in power than they will be accustom, in consequence it is very easy to be constantly chasing the glide slope and without care ending up high or slow.
Mind you if you are use to fly one of these new diesel jobs like the 42 the engines behave much more like turbines!
For most PPL the hardest aspect to cope with is that the aircraft reacts a great deal more slowly to changes in power than they will be accustom, in consequence it is very easy to be constantly chasing the glide slope and without care ending up high or slow.
Mind you if you are use to fly one of these new diesel jobs like the 42 the engines behave much more like turbines!
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Any of you dreamers ever seen a 747 classic flight deck?
There are three autopilots, all of which have to be set up & engaged for autoland. But assuming the incapacitation happened in the cruise, and you had heroically battered down the cockpit door, you now are confronted with two pilots panels and a huge flight engineers panel. You probably have a few hours left to play before you all die, so why not attempt to avoid running out of fuel by setting up the seven fuel tanks and 14 fuel pumps. Unless you would prefer to die in a glider. But then again it would be useful to retain conciousness to enjoy all this drama, so see if you can figure out how the cabin pressurisation controls work. Classics gradually change trim because of fuel used, and the in use autopilot should compensate for this. Sometimes it does'nt and you may need to trim manually. When you disconnect will be the most exciting part of your whole short trip, and will be accompanied by lots of warning lights and noises. Coffin corner will get you and the final dive to earth will be a most exciting rollercoaster ride.
I know hope springs eternal, but if someone at BA can set up a realistic situation on a 747 classic simulator (without the armoured door!) and let a ppl try to take over & land, you will see what I mean.
Lose your pilots on a big jet and you are all going to die..sorry.
There are three autopilots, all of which have to be set up & engaged for autoland. But assuming the incapacitation happened in the cruise, and you had heroically battered down the cockpit door, you now are confronted with two pilots panels and a huge flight engineers panel. You probably have a few hours left to play before you all die, so why not attempt to avoid running out of fuel by setting up the seven fuel tanks and 14 fuel pumps. Unless you would prefer to die in a glider. But then again it would be useful to retain conciousness to enjoy all this drama, so see if you can figure out how the cabin pressurisation controls work. Classics gradually change trim because of fuel used, and the in use autopilot should compensate for this. Sometimes it does'nt and you may need to trim manually. When you disconnect will be the most exciting part of your whole short trip, and will be accompanied by lots of warning lights and noises. Coffin corner will get you and the final dive to earth will be a most exciting rollercoaster ride.
I know hope springs eternal, but if someone at BA can set up a realistic situation on a 747 classic simulator (without the armoured door!) and let a ppl try to take over & land, you will see what I mean.
Lose your pilots on a big jet and you are all going to die..sorry.
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That all leads us to the question: should in emergency's like this, a system be activated that allows people on the ground control the airplane and safely land it ? technically it's no problem to link the airplane (any fly by wire one) to a simulator on the ground that's controlling the jumbo up there....
Ref my previous post regarding my missus having a go at getting the thing down, I thought I would re-run the exercise. However, Mrs W has a hangover, so wasn't interested (that's what happens when you start the evening with a pint of G & T!), so Winterland junior was co-opted instead. He's 13, plays computer games but has very little interest in aircraft or becoming a pilot (smart lad!). The simulator we used is the excellent PS1.3 which is so realistic and faithful in it's represetation of the 744 that several 744 TRTOs use it as part of their training.
This is how it went:
The scenario was that he has just got into the flight deck and is faced with an aircraft in the cruise at FL370, just thirty miles prior to TOD into Honolulu. It's one of the pre loaded sceanrios the sim has in it's database. I'm acting as the pilot on the ground talking him through and I'm not cheating by looking at the screen except on a couple of occaisions when I need to show him where a particular control is, as the sim doesn't look like MS FS2004. It has composite screens and I can't describe where - for example- the autobrake knob is, I have to show him.
First, I get him to look at the ND, the HNL VOR has autotuned, so I know he's at 95 DME. I make sure he can identify the ALT knob on the MCP and he winds it down to 5000'. I then guide him to the FLCH button, and he pushes it. He confirms we're descending. We confirm from the PFD he's in LNAV. From the upper EICAS display, we learn we have 45 tonnes of fuel, enough for 4 hours. Now we have a look at the FMC to see what's loaded. The incapacited crew have already loaded the approach, but it's the wrong one. The ATIS is giving an ILS 08 approach, the crew had loaded the ILS 04. (The runway change is part of the PS1.3 scenario). He selects DEPP/ARR and I talk him through selecting the new approach. There's a slight snag selecting it - turns out the 'decccelerate' message is in the scratchpad. We clear that, get the new approach selected and executed.
A quick check of DME against height shows we're quite a bit above the profile due to starting the descent late. I don't want to have to talk him through using the heading bug, so we open the speed window, select IAS from Mach and select a faster speed. We're now going down faster. Time to set QNH. We press the STD button, and he sets the QNH with reference to the PFD. Height check - still too high so we go for airbrake to the flight detent. Now we're really coming down. We get to 5000' abeam the airfield (I don't have an approach plate for PHNL, so I don't know about terrain - I just guess), the speedbrakes are stowed to the ARM position, (one less thing to do later) the speed is selected at 230 and flap 1 selected. A quick check of the FMC legs page shows there's a discontinuity due to the SID being incorrect for the approach. We talk through clearing the discontinuity (another scratchpad message 'discontinuity ahead' has to be cleared) and we execute the change.
I now get him to identify the speed bug and get him to select the flap 5 speed on the PFD. We slow down and select flap 5. Ditto for flap 10. now we descent to 3000' using FLCH. I talk him through selecting VREF on the FMS Init Ref page and get him to select Autobrake 3. LNAV has by now turned the aircraft onto base, so I direct him to the MCP APP button, it's pressed and he can see LOC and GS in white on the top of the PFD. Flap 20 next. The LNAV turns the aircraft onto finals, LOC capture. At 13 DME, I get him to find the gear lever and lower the gear. He can see DOWN green on the upper EICAS display, so that's good. At 10DME, he confirms GS capture on the PFD, we go for flap 25 and then flap 30, the speed bug is set so it's just above VREF on the speed strip. Passing 1500', he confirms we have LAND3 in green on the PFD, we are now set up for a CAT3b autoland which is just as well, as the PS1.3 scenario has given us CAT2 weather! The landing is perfect, he tells me when the GS on the ND reads zero, I tell him well done and sit tight while we get someone out to the aircraft to taxy it back in.
Winterland Junior has just carried out a perfect CAT3b autoland with no drama. There was no need to hand fly or trim or touch the thrust levers, no overspeeds, and no need to tune beacons. I din't make the senario overly easy as we had to re-programme the approach and we had to take action to prevent getting too high on the descent profile. Had he not been able to clear the discontinuity and LNAV not been available, we could have still worked our way round selecting heading and steering on an intercept for the LOC. Had he needed to go round, I could have easily directed him press the TOGA buttons and talked him round in HDG onto the ILS.
So I stand by my original statement - yes, a PPL could land a 744.
Mrs Winterland has promised to have a go when she's feeling better. I expect she will do quite well as she's sat on a 744 flightdeck during landing on several occaisions and has also done some flying training.
The Classic is different. It would be very hard to talk someone through an autolanding in that (I have ratings on both 74Cs and 744s BTW). It's nowhere near as user friendly and the navigation alone would be a nightmare. Also, I currently fly an Airbus FBW type and I don't think it would be as easy to talk someone through an autoland as the 744.
This is how it went:
The scenario was that he has just got into the flight deck and is faced with an aircraft in the cruise at FL370, just thirty miles prior to TOD into Honolulu. It's one of the pre loaded sceanrios the sim has in it's database. I'm acting as the pilot on the ground talking him through and I'm not cheating by looking at the screen except on a couple of occaisions when I need to show him where a particular control is, as the sim doesn't look like MS FS2004. It has composite screens and I can't describe where - for example- the autobrake knob is, I have to show him.
First, I get him to look at the ND, the HNL VOR has autotuned, so I know he's at 95 DME. I make sure he can identify the ALT knob on the MCP and he winds it down to 5000'. I then guide him to the FLCH button, and he pushes it. He confirms we're descending. We confirm from the PFD he's in LNAV. From the upper EICAS display, we learn we have 45 tonnes of fuel, enough for 4 hours. Now we have a look at the FMC to see what's loaded. The incapacited crew have already loaded the approach, but it's the wrong one. The ATIS is giving an ILS 08 approach, the crew had loaded the ILS 04. (The runway change is part of the PS1.3 scenario). He selects DEPP/ARR and I talk him through selecting the new approach. There's a slight snag selecting it - turns out the 'decccelerate' message is in the scratchpad. We clear that, get the new approach selected and executed.
A quick check of DME against height shows we're quite a bit above the profile due to starting the descent late. I don't want to have to talk him through using the heading bug, so we open the speed window, select IAS from Mach and select a faster speed. We're now going down faster. Time to set QNH. We press the STD button, and he sets the QNH with reference to the PFD. Height check - still too high so we go for airbrake to the flight detent. Now we're really coming down. We get to 5000' abeam the airfield (I don't have an approach plate for PHNL, so I don't know about terrain - I just guess), the speedbrakes are stowed to the ARM position, (one less thing to do later) the speed is selected at 230 and flap 1 selected. A quick check of the FMC legs page shows there's a discontinuity due to the SID being incorrect for the approach. We talk through clearing the discontinuity (another scratchpad message 'discontinuity ahead' has to be cleared) and we execute the change.
I now get him to identify the speed bug and get him to select the flap 5 speed on the PFD. We slow down and select flap 5. Ditto for flap 10. now we descent to 3000' using FLCH. I talk him through selecting VREF on the FMS Init Ref page and get him to select Autobrake 3. LNAV has by now turned the aircraft onto base, so I direct him to the MCP APP button, it's pressed and he can see LOC and GS in white on the top of the PFD. Flap 20 next. The LNAV turns the aircraft onto finals, LOC capture. At 13 DME, I get him to find the gear lever and lower the gear. He can see DOWN green on the upper EICAS display, so that's good. At 10DME, he confirms GS capture on the PFD, we go for flap 25 and then flap 30, the speed bug is set so it's just above VREF on the speed strip. Passing 1500', he confirms we have LAND3 in green on the PFD, we are now set up for a CAT3b autoland which is just as well, as the PS1.3 scenario has given us CAT2 weather! The landing is perfect, he tells me when the GS on the ND reads zero, I tell him well done and sit tight while we get someone out to the aircraft to taxy it back in.
Winterland Junior has just carried out a perfect CAT3b autoland with no drama. There was no need to hand fly or trim or touch the thrust levers, no overspeeds, and no need to tune beacons. I din't make the senario overly easy as we had to re-programme the approach and we had to take action to prevent getting too high on the descent profile. Had he not been able to clear the discontinuity and LNAV not been available, we could have still worked our way round selecting heading and steering on an intercept for the LOC. Had he needed to go round, I could have easily directed him press the TOGA buttons and talked him round in HDG onto the ILS.
So I stand by my original statement - yes, a PPL could land a 744.
Mrs Winterland has promised to have a go when she's feeling better. I expect she will do quite well as she's sat on a 744 flightdeck during landing on several occaisions and has also done some flying training.
The Classic is different. It would be very hard to talk someone through an autolanding in that (I have ratings on both 74Cs and 744s BTW). It's nowhere near as user friendly and the navigation alone would be a nightmare. Also, I currently fly an Airbus FBW type and I don't think it would be as easy to talk someone through an autoland as the 744.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 13th May 2007 at 08:47.
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Just a small correction Dan.
A PPL could programme the 744 systems to perform an autoland - as could probably most people - which is not quite the same as a PPL landing a 744. In this case whether a person has a PPL or not is irrelevant.
Your scenario also lacks some of the factors that would be present in real life. Such as the pucker.
A PPL could programme the 744 systems to perform an autoland - as could probably most people - which is not quite the same as a PPL landing a 744. In this case whether a person has a PPL or not is irrelevant.
Your scenario also lacks some of the factors that would be present in real life. Such as the pucker.
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All very well sat in an armchair on a Sunday morning with the smell of bacon being cooked in the background! Reality is, as we know is a tad different. Keep dreaming guys!
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I spend a bit of time on FS9 in between studying for my ATPL writtens, much to the amusement of my housemates. On asking if they could have 'a play' 4 out of 5 of my housemates have managed to sucessfully land the Level D 767, which is a pretty accurate representation of the real 300ER. One even managed to hash fly the ILS using just the instruments, although that took some coaching.
And you'd be surprised at the length of realism some people go to with their virtual aviation, VATSIM (a virtual ATC client network) used to do 'cross the pond' flyins, and it was very amusing to see about 30 aircraft in various stacks into Heathrow one way, and then out again.
I have heard the legal bit about being able to fly any aircraft, as has been pointed out though you'd be hard pushed to find a TRTO that would take a PPL!
Horgy
And you'd be surprised at the length of realism some people go to with their virtual aviation, VATSIM (a virtual ATC client network) used to do 'cross the pond' flyins, and it was very amusing to see about 30 aircraft in various stacks into Heathrow one way, and then out again.
I have heard the legal bit about being able to fly any aircraft, as has been pointed out though you'd be hard pushed to find a TRTO that would take a PPL!
Horgy
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Why would a mere PPL be expected to crack under the pressure? Never flown a SEP in IMC over the mountains on a moonless night? Flying a nice automated 747 with anti-ice, four super reliable turbine engines, and a nice 747 pilot on the ground telling you everything is going to be OK must be a mental cakewalk in comparison. Myself, I'd demand a bottle of duty free gin and sit myself down in the back, one understands first class is mainly full of airline employees anyway, I'd let one of them do the work.
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I'm sorry, manually fly the descent, approach and landing in a B747-400, I don' think so, like stated above an auto land would defo be the way to go, I'm on the B737 and I wouldn't fancy hand balling a 74 on my own in an emergency situation for the very first time...We discussed the original scenario during our ATPL groudschool with our instructors, can a ppl fly a B747, and the answer we were given was yes. All they have to do is the type course and then buy themsleves a B747, or fly a friends...sharing costs of course!!! and if you havn't got an IR you could only fly it VMC, how cool would that be!!!
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"Can anybody fly a plane ?"
Ok,
This is inspired by the thread "PPL flying a 747". Usual disaster movie scenario, pilot has eaten the fish, all are incapacitated, call goes over the speakers "can anybody fly a plane ?"
I've got 30 hours, not a PPL, but let's say you are the only person on board that steps forward.
Surely, you press the PTT button and speak to the ground station. If none available you go to 121.5 and issue the "mayday" message.
Wouldn't the 747 just land itself on auto ? Can it really be that hard to fly straight and level until you get some sort of response ?
This is inspired by the thread "PPL flying a 747". Usual disaster movie scenario, pilot has eaten the fish, all are incapacitated, call goes over the speakers "can anybody fly a plane ?"
I've got 30 hours, not a PPL, but let's say you are the only person on board that steps forward.
Surely, you press the PTT button and speak to the ground station. If none available you go to 121.5 and issue the "mayday" message.
Wouldn't the 747 just land itself on auto ? Can it really be that hard to fly straight and level until you get some sort of response ?
Could a PPL fly a 747? was the orignal question. I think it was a question about it being possible, both logisticly and legally. We've suffered a bit of thread creep, we are now on 'could a 747 be landed if the pilots were incapacitated?' I think both questions have been answered.
If you're talking about a PPL sitting on the flightdeck and thinking he will click the autopilot out and have a go, it will likely end in disaster. From being in the cruise and finding an airport where he can get the thing in a position to land it manually will be so far removed from his experience that he wouldn't be able to cope - let alone the landing. The sceanrio where my son got it on the ground is very very different. He was just sitting there pushing the buttons on my instruction. It was actully me flying the thing while not looking at what he was seeing, just looking at a plan of the flightdeck to remind me where things were, as although I'm rated on the 744, it's 4 years since I last flew it. He had little understanding of what was going on, he was just reporting what he could see. The first thing I would have said was "Don't touch the control column or the thrust levers - at all!" The scenario where he would have diconnected the autopilot would have been a disaster. In this case a lack of knowledge was beneficial.
The 744 is designed to be flown on automatics. If you were the 30 hour pilot and got on the flight deck in the cruise, you will find it on autopilot. Picking up the hand mic and just talking would get a response, even in half way across the Atlantic. Being talked through the rest of the flight is plausible, even if the approach wasn't loaded. When you set up for an approach, it defaults to a CAT3 ILS, you actually have to intervene to do otherwise. (Most 744 pilots leave the automatics in until the last moment anyway. On long flights getting back into Heathrow at 7am, I was knackered. The autopilot wasn't disconnected until 200' usually).
And a manual landing? The 744 is actaully very easy to land - there is an auto rad alt call up. At the 50' call, you just start to close the thrust levers, at 30' you selct 2 degrees nose up. You don't have to kick off any drift because when the body gear touches down, the fusleage gets lined up with the runway (Boeing recommend not kicking off the drift on wet or contaminated runways anyway). And forgetting to flare? Well, if you do a real CAT3b autoland and you don't get the flare mode, you can't click out the autopilot and flare it manually because you can't see the runway at this stage. The procedure is to let it land without flaring, but Mr Boeing says this is OK and within normal limits anyway! Getting it to the stage where it could be landed would be the difficult part.
The Classic is harder to land BTW. It has to be flown all the way down to the ground.
If you're talking about a PPL sitting on the flightdeck and thinking he will click the autopilot out and have a go, it will likely end in disaster. From being in the cruise and finding an airport where he can get the thing in a position to land it manually will be so far removed from his experience that he wouldn't be able to cope - let alone the landing. The sceanrio where my son got it on the ground is very very different. He was just sitting there pushing the buttons on my instruction. It was actully me flying the thing while not looking at what he was seeing, just looking at a plan of the flightdeck to remind me where things were, as although I'm rated on the 744, it's 4 years since I last flew it. He had little understanding of what was going on, he was just reporting what he could see. The first thing I would have said was "Don't touch the control column or the thrust levers - at all!" The scenario where he would have diconnected the autopilot would have been a disaster. In this case a lack of knowledge was beneficial.
The 744 is designed to be flown on automatics. If you were the 30 hour pilot and got on the flight deck in the cruise, you will find it on autopilot. Picking up the hand mic and just talking would get a response, even in half way across the Atlantic. Being talked through the rest of the flight is plausible, even if the approach wasn't loaded. When you set up for an approach, it defaults to a CAT3 ILS, you actually have to intervene to do otherwise. (Most 744 pilots leave the automatics in until the last moment anyway. On long flights getting back into Heathrow at 7am, I was knackered. The autopilot wasn't disconnected until 200' usually).
And a manual landing? The 744 is actaully very easy to land - there is an auto rad alt call up. At the 50' call, you just start to close the thrust levers, at 30' you selct 2 degrees nose up. You don't have to kick off any drift because when the body gear touches down, the fusleage gets lined up with the runway (Boeing recommend not kicking off the drift on wet or contaminated runways anyway). And forgetting to flare? Well, if you do a real CAT3b autoland and you don't get the flare mode, you can't click out the autopilot and flare it manually because you can't see the runway at this stage. The procedure is to let it land without flaring, but Mr Boeing says this is OK and within normal limits anyway! Getting it to the stage where it could be landed would be the difficult part.
The Classic is harder to land BTW. It has to be flown all the way down to the ground.
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Yeah I read that article in Pilot magazine this month too, and found it quite useless.
It seems to imply that the average PPL can only fly in a spamcan at 55 kts with perfect weather and no controlled airspace, let alone using any instruments apart from the airspeed indicator !
Not saying that we could all land a 747 at the first attempt, but we are not that thick either !
The bit that goes something like "Fly the approach 5 kts too slow and you'll smash into the ground, fly it too fast and you'll float for miles" left me a bit bemused considering it came from a training captain.
I am no airliner expert but it made me worry as it implies that everytime we're on final approach on one of the many commercial flights I take as a passenger, I am only 5 kts away from a tragic death !!
It also revealed the aerodynamic (and environmentally friendly) properties of the 747 which, on idle power, will float for miles if flown 10 kts too fast on approach. Who needs engines !!! Gordon Brown will appreciate that.
The other bit about "only young alert folks like Will Swinburn can do it" (don't quote me on that one, but that was the message) was priceless.
Sometimes what separates an experienced and competent PPL from a ME IR CPL is simply a lot of money invested in training !
Maybe it was an Oxford advert in disguise ???
It seems to imply that the average PPL can only fly in a spamcan at 55 kts with perfect weather and no controlled airspace, let alone using any instruments apart from the airspeed indicator !
Not saying that we could all land a 747 at the first attempt, but we are not that thick either !
The bit that goes something like "Fly the approach 5 kts too slow and you'll smash into the ground, fly it too fast and you'll float for miles" left me a bit bemused considering it came from a training captain.
I am no airliner expert but it made me worry as it implies that everytime we're on final approach on one of the many commercial flights I take as a passenger, I am only 5 kts away from a tragic death !!
It also revealed the aerodynamic (and environmentally friendly) properties of the 747 which, on idle power, will float for miles if flown 10 kts too fast on approach. Who needs engines !!! Gordon Brown will appreciate that.
The other bit about "only young alert folks like Will Swinburn can do it" (don't quote me on that one, but that was the message) was priceless.
Sometimes what separates an experienced and competent PPL from a ME IR CPL is simply a lot of money invested in training !
Maybe it was an Oxford advert in disguise ???
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A piece of rubbish like that could not have come from a real live training captain; a bar propper more likely. But, as I said, the UK mags will print more or less anything without anybody doing any checking. I stopped buying them regularly a few years ago.
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More to the point - could a 747 Captain 400 or Classic land one of the worlds simplest aircraft, a flexwing microlight...Would be the complete opposite in terms of energy management and inertia! Also pitch works in the opposite way! I am more than happy to provide aircraft and talk down (from the back seat) if any 747 guys fancy a go! I dont even expect them to return the favour either! If there are any takers I will provide the story here.
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In th early 90's invested in 2 hours in a BA747-400 simulator at Cranebank.
Just to keep this short & sweet...the answer to "could a PPL land a 747" is a definate yes so long as he / she has somebody on the radio who can guide him through the key parts of the decent & approach and help manage the switchery.
In my case I had a 1st officer sat in the right hand seat. The wind was calm & vis was excellent with NOSIG. I handled the power and flew the approach to Kai Tak RWY 13 [Checker board]. Overbanked at the board and was too high on final but managed to touch down 1/3rd in and stop with max reverse and braking. Wasnt pretty but everyone would have walked away....
The other hour was spent in a Tristar 500 which was a completley different kettle of fish...managed to write off Hatton Cross and definatley would not have walked away!!
I think todays integrated systems clearly make this a less challenging excercise than in the days of analogue systems and a Flight Engineer.
M
Just to keep this short & sweet...the answer to "could a PPL land a 747" is a definate yes so long as he / she has somebody on the radio who can guide him through the key parts of the decent & approach and help manage the switchery.
In my case I had a 1st officer sat in the right hand seat. The wind was calm & vis was excellent with NOSIG. I handled the power and flew the approach to Kai Tak RWY 13 [Checker board]. Overbanked at the board and was too high on final but managed to touch down 1/3rd in and stop with max reverse and braking. Wasnt pretty but everyone would have walked away....
The other hour was spent in a Tristar 500 which was a completley different kettle of fish...managed to write off Hatton Cross and definatley would not have walked away!!
I think todays integrated systems clearly make this a less challenging excercise than in the days of analogue systems and a Flight Engineer.
M
flexy - done it! It did take about 20 minutes to settle down. The trick was in realising that my hands were manipulating the whole wing, not just the controls. Biggest grin I've ever had. Jaw ached for days afterwards. Heartily recommend it...
IO540 you're quite correct he's not real live training captain (...any more), he's a retired BA 757 and 747 skipper (not sure about the trainer bit) and an experienced light aircraft pilot on lots of types who writes flight tests for the mag. Being retired he probably does prop up a bar now and again but would not fall into the derogatory "bar-propper" category you mentioned.
And thinking back on my first 757 sim detail I'm inclined to agree with him. Couldn't fly the thing properly, totally confused by the glass cockpit instrumentation and thinking "what am I doing here? I'll never manage this" - and that was after 3 weeks of groundschool, two years flying turboprops before that, a year of GA mixed rotary / light twin before that and 7 years RAF piloting before that. It's effin difficult. My ex-RN Sea King and Gazelle QHI and Display Pilot sim buddy felt the same.
Possibly, but we've got to get onto final in a suitable configuration first. Now a reasonably competent PPL/IR may have a stab at it, but I still maintain from my earlier post that the best way is to let the automatics do it all for you. Agree, like your TB20 it's impossible to work out just by looking at it and (like d192949d says) you'd need some help on the RT from Dan Winterland but you'll have much more of a chance than hand flying - especially at high level. Just one hostie walking from the rear galley to the front messes up the trim while hand flying. Autopilot takes care of it for you, freeing up all that capacity. Standard Operating Procedure at my old airline was "Have an emergency - put the autopilot in!" - It'll give our PPL time to take stock, look around, think of a plan and try to contact somebody for help.
And right here is where it can all go horribly wrong. You can look for the PTT buttons on the console and glareshield but most PPLs would think of the controls. Trouble is there are quite a few buttons and switches on the yoke. On an Airbus the visible one is the sidestick priority button (I think it's called). On an Embraer yoke one of them starts the stopwatch! And on the 757/767 yoke the big one that looks like a PTT is actually the autopilot disconnect...clunk, you're hand flying, there's an effin loud autopilot disconnect warning with no volume control (how do you turn it off?). And you notice out of the corner of your eye a red warning on the previously blank centre screen...
Ignoring the sound you manage OK and decide to descend, retard the thrust levers a tad. They smoothly move back to where they were, the autothrottle is still in. You do it more forcefully and manage to hit the a/t disconnect with your thumb (you knew it was there all along didn't you?). More noise, another warning on the centre screen and as you pull off some power the pitch couple from the low slung engines causes the nose to pitch down a lot more than you are expecting...meantime you've noticed a speaker by your knee with a volume control in the centre. Turning the knob to the stops both ways several times has no effect and you don't understand why the warning keeps on blaring at you.
Looking out the window the pitch down might not even register 'cos unlike your PA28 there's no nose out the front to help with the visual cues for attitude. But let's say you're not in cloud, you do notice and you apply back pressure to keep the nose from dropping. It can be quite a pull. Your arms are getting tired, you decide to trim and look for the trim wheel. If its a 707,727 or 737 you're in luck...there it is, but you have to work out how to unstow the handle and then you'll need to wind wind wind wind for ages, while holding the yoke pressure with one hand. On the 757/767 you can't see one - just a sea of unfamiliar levers and buttons on the centre console.
Now lots of us like IO540 and high-hopes will have come across electric trim and will have sussed out the switches on the yoke. But there are two, side by side....which one do you use? The left one, the right one, both at once? Remember it trims the whole horizontal stabiliser, not just the elevators, so it's very sensitive. In the meantime the hosties are still upsetting your trim even more by trying to move around the cabin and reassure the passengers, the warning noises are about to be joined by the overspeed warning, the TCAS might be shouting "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" at you, those captions on the centre panel are starting to annoy you and you're becoming increasingly puzzled as to why you can't even raise Dan Winterland on the RT. You can hear yourself going out OK...trouble is it's on the intercom.
I'm sorry slim_slag but I believe a "mere PPL" (your words) would quite quickly be able to inadvertantly put themselves in a situation where they would
As a former 757/767 chap I would keep the autopilot in all the way for an autoland. That doesn't make me more Chuck Yaeger than a low time PPL or a PPL/IR with lots of experience. I just believe it's more sensible. Even if we do get to the point ready to do IO540's visual landing and THEN take the autopilot out, there are loads of gotchas - the pitch couple from the low slung engines, the 757's marked balloon on selecting Flap 20, general sponginess of controls compared with a light single etc etc.
BUT, like the swiss-cheese-holes-lining-up-break-the-accident-chain-thing-in-reverse, if
1) the PPL got into the flight deck in time
2) the PPL didn't inadvertantly disconnect the automatics
3) the PPL was able to call for help on the RT
4) ATC was able to rustle up an experienced pilot
5) the PPL was also an experienced flight simmer (or had one there) who had some idea of how the automatics functioned and then made a conscious decision to use them all the way to aircraft stopped on the runway.
6) etc
7) etc
then it is theoretically possible to save the day and walk away the hero. But, if one piece is missing, everybody dies.
Hand-flown with no help, I'd have to say no. High speed high altitude aerodynamics will probably get you faster than you can say "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is your new Captain" - I've got to agree with Dan Winterland when he says
Apologies for rambling on...Good news is, the way automation is going, you'll soon have a choice of 2 buttons to push...and none of us will need a PPL to work out that it's the one that says "LAND" rather than the one that says "FLY"
IO540 you're quite correct he's not real live training captain (...any more), he's a retired BA 757 and 747 skipper (not sure about the trainer bit) and an experienced light aircraft pilot on lots of types who writes flight tests for the mag. Being retired he probably does prop up a bar now and again but would not fall into the derogatory "bar-propper" category you mentioned.
And thinking back on my first 757 sim detail I'm inclined to agree with him. Couldn't fly the thing properly, totally confused by the glass cockpit instrumentation and thinking "what am I doing here? I'll never manage this" - and that was after 3 weeks of groundschool, two years flying turboprops before that, a year of GA mixed rotary / light twin before that and 7 years RAF piloting before that. It's effin difficult. My ex-RN Sea King and Gazelle QHI and Display Pilot sim buddy felt the same.
Originally Posted by IO540
Manually, on a good day, can't see why a visual landing could not be pulled off by somebody not type rated
Originally Posted by PompeyPaul
Surely, you press the PTT button and speak to the ground station...
Ignoring the sound you manage OK and decide to descend, retard the thrust levers a tad. They smoothly move back to where they were, the autothrottle is still in. You do it more forcefully and manage to hit the a/t disconnect with your thumb (you knew it was there all along didn't you?). More noise, another warning on the centre screen and as you pull off some power the pitch couple from the low slung engines causes the nose to pitch down a lot more than you are expecting...meantime you've noticed a speaker by your knee with a volume control in the centre. Turning the knob to the stops both ways several times has no effect and you don't understand why the warning keeps on blaring at you.
Looking out the window the pitch down might not even register 'cos unlike your PA28 there's no nose out the front to help with the visual cues for attitude. But let's say you're not in cloud, you do notice and you apply back pressure to keep the nose from dropping. It can be quite a pull. Your arms are getting tired, you decide to trim and look for the trim wheel. If its a 707,727 or 737 you're in luck...there it is, but you have to work out how to unstow the handle and then you'll need to wind wind wind wind for ages, while holding the yoke pressure with one hand. On the 757/767 you can't see one - just a sea of unfamiliar levers and buttons on the centre console.
Now lots of us like IO540 and high-hopes will have come across electric trim and will have sussed out the switches on the yoke. But there are two, side by side....which one do you use? The left one, the right one, both at once? Remember it trims the whole horizontal stabiliser, not just the elevators, so it's very sensitive. In the meantime the hosties are still upsetting your trim even more by trying to move around the cabin and reassure the passengers, the warning noises are about to be joined by the overspeed warning, the TCAS might be shouting "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" at you, those captions on the centre panel are starting to annoy you and you're becoming increasingly puzzled as to why you can't even raise Dan Winterland on the RT. You can hear yourself going out OK...trouble is it's on the intercom.
I'm sorry slim_slag but I believe a "mere PPL" (your words) would quite quickly be able to inadvertantly put themselves in a situation where they would
Originally Posted by slim_slag
...crack under the pressure...
BUT, like the swiss-cheese-holes-lining-up-break-the-accident-chain-thing-in-reverse, if
1) the PPL got into the flight deck in time
2) the PPL didn't inadvertantly disconnect the automatics
3) the PPL was able to call for help on the RT
4) ATC was able to rustle up an experienced pilot
5) the PPL was also an experienced flight simmer (or had one there) who had some idea of how the automatics functioned and then made a conscious decision to use them all the way to aircraft stopped on the runway.
6) etc
7) etc
then it is theoretically possible to save the day and walk away the hero. But, if one piece is missing, everybody dies.
Hand-flown with no help, I'd have to say no. High speed high altitude aerodynamics will probably get you faster than you can say "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is your new Captain" - I've got to agree with Dan Winterland when he says
Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
...If you're talking about a PPL sitting on the flightdeck and thinking he will click the autopilot out and have a go, it will likely end in disaster...