C172 Maximum Cross wind
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From: Malmesbury VRP
C172 Maximum Cross wind
This one has me perplexed as to
A) What is the aircrafts maximum cross wind limit
B) what would the insurance company do if I bent the plane in a moderate to heavy cross wind balls up
So here it is. In the POH that came with the 1967 C172 H this is what it has to say about the cross wind component.
So does it mean the max crosswind component is 15 MPH or does it mean the maximum is what ever i can handle until the day I crash it?
A) What is the aircrafts maximum cross wind limit
B) what would the insurance company do if I bent the plane in a moderate to heavy cross wind balls up
So here it is. In the POH that came with the 1967 C172 H this is what it has to say about the cross wind component.
The maximum allowable corsswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety.
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From: Amsterdam
The POH means exactly that: a factory pilot has demonstrated that the aircraft can be landed with a 15-knot crosswind. They did not test any higher crosswinds, probably because they were not required to.
What happens if the crosswind is higher, you try to land anyway and you bend the aircraft? This depends on what's written in your insurance policy, and what's in there is typically copied verbatim into club rules and such. My club, for instance, mandates a maximum crosswind component of 15 knots (despite the fact that all our aircraft have a demonstrated limit of at least 17 knots). If you land with a higher crosswind and cause damage, you're the one to pay for it.
What happens if the crosswind is higher, you try to land anyway and you bend the aircraft? This depends on what's written in your insurance policy, and what's in there is typically copied verbatim into club rules and such. My club, for instance, mandates a maximum crosswind component of 15 knots (despite the fact that all our aircraft have a demonstrated limit of at least 17 knots). If you land with a higher crosswind and cause damage, you're the one to pay for it.
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From: Malmesbury VRP
Well it is not a club plane and there is no mention of limitations in the insurance other than a pointer stating not to be operated outside of the aircraft limits.
The POH clearly states the limit is on the pilot and not the aircraft. It only points out the average pilot can handle 15 MPH which is only 13kts which is a pathetic limit.
The POH clearly states the limit is on the pilot and not the aircraft. It only points out the average pilot can handle 15 MPH which is only 13kts which is a pathetic limit.
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From: Malmesbury VRP
Originally Posted by GASAX
The topics that will not die............
Or the characters who will not search...............
Or the characters who will not search...............
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From: Atlantic
To land with a crosswind is at the discretion of the PIC, demonstrated in the POH is information that is used to make that decision. That is the legal responsibility. The insurance company may make their own restrictions that you will have to comply with for them to insure you. It is very unlikely that they will make resrictions lower than the POH. To land in a x wind greater than demonstrated does not exceed the POH but may exceed the pilot's capability, this = pilot error. Pilot error is what we are insured for.
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From: Atlantic
Capt. Fathom
If this is your interpretation then stick to it, that will keep you safe. As far as the rest of the flying fraternity is concerned it should be exactly as intended, the aircraft has demonstrated a successful x wind landing with x knots of crosswind component, this is not a limiting factor.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
One of the things that I love about flying is the constant worry about what the insurance company might say. I don't know who others insure with but my insurance company put no restrictions on anything I do. I have referred them to the comments on these forums a number of times and they just laugh. Haywards have a simple view, if the aicraft and pilot are legal then they will insure to an agreed value. They charge a premium based on risk.
As far as the 172 is concerned I can assure you that at 30 kts across the runway there is still enough rudder authority to land with ease. I would never get to go flying in the winter at our place if I spent my life interpreting the POH for some restriction that is not there trying to satisfy some imaginary insurance company restriction.
I really do believe that a lot of people hide behind "what ifs" to avoid having any fun.........
As far as the 172 is concerned I can assure you that at 30 kts across the runway there is still enough rudder authority to land with ease. I would never get to go flying in the winter at our place if I spent my life interpreting the POH for some restriction that is not there trying to satisfy some imaginary insurance company restriction.
I really do believe that a lot of people hide behind "what ifs" to avoid having any fun.........
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From: South West UK
Sorry to jump in late on this but I thought it's worth saying that this is not just the same old "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" discussion - re-read the original quote from gcolyer's operating manual which said ...
"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."
There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!
It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!
3 Point
"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."
There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!
It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!
3 Point
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From: South West UK
Foxmoth,
Surely it would be good to find those limits without the crash! This is why I said practice by working up and using an instructor till you find your personal limit. I doubt the insurance company could object to this or try to refuse a claim. If the pilot had records of training flights with an instructor who had seen him operate safely up to a particular crasswind figure he could argue that this was within his capability!
The main point I am making is that you must read what's written in the POH and take it at face value. If one pilot chooses to limit himself to 10Kt x-wind then I am sure that he would be quite safe; another pilot choosing 35Kt as his limit may or may not not be safe but, he would be legal (as far as comliance with this section of the POH is concerned)!
3 Point
Surely it would be good to find those limits without the crash! This is why I said practice by working up and using an instructor till you find your personal limit. I doubt the insurance company could object to this or try to refuse a claim. If the pilot had records of training flights with an instructor who had seen him operate safely up to a particular crasswind figure he could argue that this was within his capability!
The main point I am making is that you must read what's written in the POH and take it at face value. If one pilot chooses to limit himself to 10Kt x-wind then I am sure that he would be quite safe; another pilot choosing 35Kt as his limit may or may not not be safe but, he would be legal (as far as comliance with this section of the POH is concerned)!
3 Point
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From: Malmesbury VRP
Originally Posted by 3 Point
Sorry to jump in late on this but I thought it's worth saying that this is not just the same old "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" discussion - re-read the original quote from gcolyer's operating manual which said ...
"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."
There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!
It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!
3 Point
"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."
There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!
It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!
3 Point
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From: Compton Abbas
When I was training for my PPL, towards the end when I'd been through the syllabus, I arrived at the airfield on a very windy day, prepared to be told to go home. The crosswind component of the wind was between 17 and 22 knots consistently, and I knew the PA28 I was learning in had a maximum demonstrated crosswind landing limit of 17 knots.
My assumption was that you couldn't attempt to land the aeroplane if you knew the crosswind was beyond this limit, but my instructor pointed out that this was simply a demonstrated limit and there was no harm in practicing on such a day to determine how I personally coped with strong winds, and in fact he thought practice in such conditions was a good thing for me to have.
It turned out to be a great training session - I felt safe because the instructor was there (though he never took control), I was performing crosswind landings at 22 knots across, and as it turned out, I handled it quite well. Now I feel that much more confident about handling such landings - although I'd still hesitate about knowingly landing in such conditions and be ready to go around at any time, I don't feel like it's beyond my ability.
My assumption was that you couldn't attempt to land the aeroplane if you knew the crosswind was beyond this limit, but my instructor pointed out that this was simply a demonstrated limit and there was no harm in practicing on such a day to determine how I personally coped with strong winds, and in fact he thought practice in such conditions was a good thing for me to have.
It turned out to be a great training session - I felt safe because the instructor was there (though he never took control), I was performing crosswind landings at 22 knots across, and as it turned out, I handled it quite well. Now I feel that much more confident about handling such landings - although I'd still hesitate about knowingly landing in such conditions and be ready to go around at any time, I don't feel like it's beyond my ability.