IMC priveledges
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bose-x
There is no suggestion that the IMCR is unsafe at all. But it is a unique anomaly in that it is a UK CAA only rating and like it or not we are now all part of one big happy Europe. The Europeans will not accept it so we have to look at the big picture and make the IR accessible to all.
The UK has been a part of one big happy Europe since one of Britain's greatest visionary leaders, that paragon of integrity Ted Heath,
took Britain into Europe. And this didn't prevent the UK doing its own thing on many fronts, not just the IMCR. There are loads of differences like that. A French issues PPL can fly VMC on top. Will the frogs give that one up? Not likely! That's a pretty big anomaly in itself, since a non-instrument capable pilot may not be able to get back down again.
This is a very poor reason for abolishing a privilege that is limited to UK airspace anyway.
From what you say it appears that this IR project will not be tied into abolishing the IMCR as some kind of quid pro quo, throwing some meat to the dog as it were. That is good news then. Extra routes to an IR are always welcome. I bet that the IMCR will not go away - not when somebody takes a sober look at the UK GA scene.
I am not paranoid, just realistic. I also know how hard it is to get an IR, for somebody who is not partly or wholly retired. It's a truly major project to be doing at the relevant stage of one's life.
cjboy
Opposition has traditionally come from the "it was difficult for me, why should these young whippersnappers get an easy ride" brigade of ex RAF and airline types. Let's hope that attitude has died out
That attitude is what runs most of aviation regulation today. It has not died out and won't die out. This is why IFR GA is under threat.
There is no suggestion that the IMCR is unsafe at all. But it is a unique anomaly in that it is a UK CAA only rating and like it or not we are now all part of one big happy Europe. The Europeans will not accept it so we have to look at the big picture and make the IR accessible to all.
The UK has been a part of one big happy Europe since one of Britain's greatest visionary leaders, that paragon of integrity Ted Heath,
took Britain into Europe. And this didn't prevent the UK doing its own thing on many fronts, not just the IMCR. There are loads of differences like that. A French issues PPL can fly VMC on top. Will the frogs give that one up? Not likely! That's a pretty big anomaly in itself, since a non-instrument capable pilot may not be able to get back down again.This is a very poor reason for abolishing a privilege that is limited to UK airspace anyway.
From what you say it appears that this IR project will not be tied into abolishing the IMCR as some kind of quid pro quo, throwing some meat to the dog as it were. That is good news then. Extra routes to an IR are always welcome. I bet that the IMCR will not go away - not when somebody takes a sober look at the UK GA scene.
I am not paranoid, just realistic. I also know how hard it is to get an IR, for somebody who is not partly or wholly retired. It's a truly major project to be doing at the relevant stage of one's life.
cjboy
Opposition has traditionally come from the "it was difficult for me, why should these young whippersnappers get an easy ride" brigade of ex RAF and airline types. Let's hope that attitude has died out
That attitude is what runs most of aviation regulation today. It has not died out and won't die out. This is why IFR GA is under threat.
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IFR GA is under threat because no one has been taking up the IR because of the difficulty in getting it. The FAA my be easier to access but the hassle of accessing an N-Reg aircraft still exists. The serious IFR tourer owns and aircraft and are prepared to put it in trust to use the rights.
If the IR was more available to the average flyer it will give more impetuous to the renters to demand IFR capable aircraft from the schools/clubs. There are many knock on benefits from increasing the numbers of IR holders.
GA is still run by the old shirts but times are a changing. It is much better to get involved and try and change from the inside rather than just bitching about it and expecting the problem to solve itself. I am sufficiently outspoken to get my opinions across and not be walked on by the old shirts!
It is quite funny to arrive in Jeans and shirt around the suits......
If the IR was more available to the average flyer it will give more impetuous to the renters to demand IFR capable aircraft from the schools/clubs. There are many knock on benefits from increasing the numbers of IR holders.
GA is still run by the old shirts but times are a changing. It is much better to get involved and try and change from the inside rather than just bitching about it and expecting the problem to solve itself. I am sufficiently outspoken to get my opinions across and not be walked on by the old shirts!
It is quite funny to arrive in Jeans and shirt around the suits......
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You must have two browser windows open - one here and one over there 
Can I put forward my suggestion for a "PPL IR" please?
1) No 170A mock test required - this is an expensive waste of money.
2) Training "as required" for IMC or ICAO IR holders
3) No formal ground training required - sit the exam and if you pass that is sufficient.
4) Revalidation by experience for private privileges - similar to the FAA system
5) Revalidation annually with check flight if experience is not met or for commercial privileges
6) No silly medical requirements
I think then we may see a big uptake in the PPL IR scene.
Can I put forward my suggestion for a "PPL IR" please?
1) No 170A mock test required - this is an expensive waste of money.
2) Training "as required" for IMC or ICAO IR holders
3) No formal ground training required - sit the exam and if you pass that is sufficient.
4) Revalidation by experience for private privileges - similar to the FAA system
5) Revalidation annually with check flight if experience is not met or for commercial privileges
6) No silly medical requirements
I think then we may see a big uptake in the PPL IR scene.
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Can I put forward my suggestion for a "PPL IR" please?
The 170A is the gatekeeper under the modular training regime.
2) Training "as required" for IMC or ICAO IR holders
15hrs and take the test for ICAO IR holders - IMCR holders will have to do an IR.
3) No formal ground training required - sit the exam and if you pass that is sufficient.
That is what is going to happen.
4) Revalidation by experience for private privileges - similar to the FAA system
Sorry but I dont see what wrong with an annual check. You do it on your standard SEP and costs you an hour with an examiner.
5) Revalidation annually with check flight if experience is not met or for commercial privileges
6) No silly medical requirements
Being reviewed to bring in line with ICAO standards as with the FAA
I think then we may see a big uptake in the PPL IR scene
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The 170A doesn't really add to the cost. Mentally it is more or less any other training flight with the proviso that the guy in the other seat doesn't have to say or do anything for the entire flight. Whether you call it a 170A or not, you need to be able to achieve this before the big day.
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I can't wait....
I need an IR as I want to fly legally abroad in IMC, especially France. What I don't have is the time to do the full IR..... or the desire to learn how the aircon works on a 747.
Can anyone with real inside knowledge throw any light on when this is really going to happen?
Can anyone with real inside knowledge throw any light on when this is really going to happen?
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If you are involved, thanks for putting the time in, I hope it works for the sake of European flight safety.
I truly hope you achieve something useful.
A French issues PPL can fly VMC on top. Will the frogs give that one up? Not likely! That's a pretty big anomaly in itself, since a non-instrument capable pilot may not be able to get back down again.
4) Revalidation by experience for private privileges - similar to the FAA system
Sorry but I don't see what wrong with an annual check. You do it on your standard SEP and costs you an hour with an examiner.
Sorry but I don't see what wrong with an annual check. You do it on your standard SEP and costs you an hour with an examiner.
If the revalidation by experience is a non-runner then perhaps it could be by experience on a rolling basis, but by the time 24 months is up, then an exam is required. Ie rolling personal currency, with an exam every 24 months.
If the exam must remain annual, then please try to make it like the current system of a 1 hour training flight with an instructor to re-validate the SEP class rating. What I mean by this, is that the IR holder should be able to approach an examiner directly, agree whatever fee is involved, go do the flight, and the examiner could make a note in the logbook/licence, and send a form off the the Aviation Authority to say that it has been completed. The aviation authority doesn't get involved and slow the process down, and make it unnecessarly expensive.
dp
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I don't see why we can't "revalidate by experience". Although Bose, you don't see a problem with it, it ends up forcing the "wrong" people to do a check flight for no reason. For example, no doubt you and IO do many hours IFR around Europe in a year, and in the course of a year I also do around America. So we're relatively current yet we get forced to find an examiner, and do a check flight with them. In my case this means driving to Bournemouth and renting a capable aeroplane, flying the profile, paying for the examiner and possibly landing and approach fees.
My mate who does the same at Bournemouth ends up paying about £800 per revalidation every year and this in the FNPT II - which I believe is being discontinued and must be done in the aeroplane. This means that his bill will rise to near £1500 per year he estimates by the time he has paid for a "brush up" session, examiner fees and aeroplane rental (Twin).
Just looking at the CAA fees for the initial IR (£600andsomething), it is a licence to print money! It is completely wrong, did you know in the USA you have the right to be examined by the FAA FOR FREE! Yep, not a single cent. You only pay if you go to a designated pilot examiner. most people go to a DPE because it is often easier to get an apointment when you want, and there is a theory that they are a bit more "forgiving".
Having the option to revalidate by experience or check flight is a sensible move in my opinion.
My mate who does the same at Bournemouth ends up paying about £800 per revalidation every year and this in the FNPT II - which I believe is being discontinued and must be done in the aeroplane. This means that his bill will rise to near £1500 per year he estimates by the time he has paid for a "brush up" session, examiner fees and aeroplane rental (Twin).
Just looking at the CAA fees for the initial IR (£600andsomething), it is a licence to print money! It is completely wrong, did you know in the USA you have the right to be examined by the FAA FOR FREE! Yep, not a single cent. You only pay if you go to a designated pilot examiner. most people go to a DPE because it is often easier to get an apointment when you want, and there is a theory that they are a bit more "forgiving".
Having the option to revalidate by experience or check flight is a sensible move in my opinion.
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I need an IR as I want to fly legally abroad in IMC, especially France. What I don't have is the time to do the full IR..... or the desire to learn how the aircon works on a 747.
Can anyone with real inside knowledge throw any light on when this is really going to happen?
Can anyone with real inside knowledge throw any light on when this is really going to happen?
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If the exam must remain annual, then please try to make it like the current system of a 1 hour training flight with an instructor to re-validate the SEP class rating. What I mean by this, is that the IR holder should be able to approach an examiner directly, agree whatever fee is involved, go do the flight, and the examiner could make a note in the logbook/licence, and send a form off the the Aviation Authority to say that it has been completed. The aviation authority doesn't get involved and slow the process down, and make it unnecessarly expensive.
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Al,
The vast majority of PPL's who take up the IR will do it in an SEP. The renewal takes an hour and can be done with any examiner. There are quite a few around. My friend just renewed his and the examiner was £80, the flight took an hour and was £100. So £180 for a renewal. I really don't know where you get these figures from.
The vast majority of PPL's who take up the IR will do it in an SEP. The renewal takes an hour and can be done with any examiner. There are quite a few around. My friend just renewed his and the examiner was £80, the flight took an hour and was £100. So £180 for a renewal. I really don't know where you get these figures from.
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My friend just renewed his and the examiner was £80, the flight took an hour and was £100. So £180 for a renewal. I really don't know where you get these figures from.
Can it really be done in 1 hour? What is involved, just departure and approach?
Would be nice if this wa combined with the 1 hour every two years thing, then could kill two birds with one stone....so to speak
Cheers
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Yes it can be done in an hour. ILS/NDB/HOLD no airways and no arrival or departure.
£300 quid an hour for a twin is high but at those price I can see some of the cost but even a multi engine and multi IR renewal should not take more than an hour.
And yes the renewal does count as your 2 year renewal flight.
£300 quid an hour for a twin is high but at those price I can see some of the cost but even a multi engine and multi IR renewal should not take more than an hour.
And yes the renewal does count as your 2 year renewal flight.
Great if IR can be made more accessible to PPLs, but please can I keep my IMC rating? It does all I want.
No, bose-x, really I don't want to be able to fly CAS A and airways. I'm prepared to do a bit more work to get an IR, I suppose, in the name of pointless European bureaucracy, but please tell me that
Those who think they don't want access to CAS A are really just trying to hang onto the IMCR, the sheer ease of airways flying has to be experienced to understand the huge benefit having an accessible IR over the IMCR.
LFAT on a sunny day, straight over the top of everything and into LFAT. Navigation is a breeze and radar service all the way. Contrary to belief the lower airways are not full of jet traffic.
LFAT on a sunny day, straight over the top of everything and into LFAT. Navigation is a breeze and radar service all the way. Contrary to belief the lower airways are not full of jet traffic.
- it will be accessible to anyone on a Class 2 medical
- it won't cost grossly more to train for than the completely adequate IMC
- some account will be taken of my IMC training and experience
Last edited by FREDAcheck; 30th Mar 2007 at 15:57. Reason: minor clarification
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This is how it actually happens now.
I presume this is a JAA thing, and the benefits will be seen in all JAA countries, and not just the UK?
dp
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This all seems fairly encouraging to me as the one thing that completely ruled out the IR for me was the classroom-based ground training.
But are we still talking 50 hours training for the SE-IR with no concession for any previous IMC/IFR experience (such as the IMCR)? That's a hell of a lot when you can do the entire PPL in 45.
But are we still talking 50 hours training for the SE-IR with no concession for any previous IMC/IFR experience (such as the IMCR)? That's a hell of a lot when you can do the entire PPL in 45.
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As with all these things, the devil will be in the detail. Like whether a CAA Class 2 medical will be usable; currently it isn't.
I welcome any more achievable IR, but as I keep saying, dropping the IMCR would be a truly stupid decision. The IMCR does a different job to the full IR.
I welcome any more achievable IR, but as I keep saying, dropping the IMCR would be a truly stupid decision. The IMCR does a different job to the full IR.