Spins in cessnas 150s and 152s
SSS
Civilan Chippys have been spun on a regular basis for about.... errrr.... more than 30 years now. Often without parachutes. I can't recall one AAIB report where one spun in.
I carried just such a report for years in my bag. The instructor survived but the student died. The report was the instructors' account of everything he had tried on the way down to recover as the spin flattened, and I kept it as a text book on methods of spin recovery.. It was AIB or AAIB, as I remember.
I worked in the 70's with a pilot who, in the RAF, had carried out research (in Oz, I think) into Chipmunk spinning, after a number of accidents. He told me that eventually they identified the problem as that last bit of forward stick movement; people believed they had reached the end of the travel when they had actually met an aerodynamic "block", with about 5cm to go, which was also at the point of longest arm reach of an average pilot properly strapped in. And that 5cm was the difference between success and failure.
C of G also affected things, as I recall, and I suppose it would be amazing if it didn't.
The solution, he told me, was to get the inactive boot on the stick and shove hard on the knee.
I think the strakes came from that research in Oz, plus perhaps the placard about forward stick. Other improvements have also probably been made to make using the boot unnecessary. So old-fashioned.
I am well aware that Chipmunks are spun perfectly safely, and have done so. But I also think that understanding your enemy is useful, and that lots and lots and lots of air between you and the ground is nice if things don't work out as they should.
Civilan Chippys have been spun on a regular basis for about.... errrr.... more than 30 years now. Often without parachutes. I can't recall one AAIB report where one spun in.
I carried just such a report for years in my bag. The instructor survived but the student died. The report was the instructors' account of everything he had tried on the way down to recover as the spin flattened, and I kept it as a text book on methods of spin recovery.. It was AIB or AAIB, as I remember.
I worked in the 70's with a pilot who, in the RAF, had carried out research (in Oz, I think) into Chipmunk spinning, after a number of accidents. He told me that eventually they identified the problem as that last bit of forward stick movement; people believed they had reached the end of the travel when they had actually met an aerodynamic "block", with about 5cm to go, which was also at the point of longest arm reach of an average pilot properly strapped in. And that 5cm was the difference between success and failure.
C of G also affected things, as I recall, and I suppose it would be amazing if it didn't.
The solution, he told me, was to get the inactive boot on the stick and shove hard on the knee.
I think the strakes came from that research in Oz, plus perhaps the placard about forward stick. Other improvements have also probably been made to make using the boot unnecessary. So old-fashioned.
I am well aware that Chipmunks are spun perfectly safely, and have done so. But I also think that understanding your enemy is useful, and that lots and lots and lots of air between you and the ground is nice if things don't work out as they should.
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Vetflyer asked about the T67 record (bit of thread drift here).
Side 1. I've spoken with a CFI who has spun it hundreds of times, and never had an unexpected response to spin recovery. But he normally starts from 7000ft.
Side 2. Statistically, the record in the last 25 years makes it the worst certified aircraft for stall/spin fatalities (unless someone knows better!). With 80 on the G reg., there have been 8 fatals in the UK, 4 of which were with instructors. There was one in each of 2005 and 2006, the 2005 one was with instructor teaching stalls to a PPL student.
Take your choice, but the US military have scrapped 100 of them due to fatality record, but they were operating in a hot high density altitude at Colorado Springs.
My own guess is that they are fine aircraft, but require exactly correct recovery actions, as did the original Chippie.
Side 1. I've spoken with a CFI who has spun it hundreds of times, and never had an unexpected response to spin recovery. But he normally starts from 7000ft.
Side 2. Statistically, the record in the last 25 years makes it the worst certified aircraft for stall/spin fatalities (unless someone knows better!). With 80 on the G reg., there have been 8 fatals in the UK, 4 of which were with instructors. There was one in each of 2005 and 2006, the 2005 one was with instructor teaching stalls to a PPL student.
Take your choice, but the US military have scrapped 100 of them due to fatality record, but they were operating in a hot high density altitude at Colorado Springs.
My own guess is that they are fine aircraft, but require exactly correct recovery actions, as did the original Chippie.
Last edited by MikeJ; 24th Mar 2007 at 16:22.
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and some say the Traumahawk has a bad rep for spinning.
Go do some in one, watch the tail in a fully developed spin and then you'll spin any other type without a care in the world.
p.s. good idea to check the airframe logbook before doing any spinning in a T'Hawk, just to make sure the tailfin mods are up to date.
Go do some in one, watch the tail in a fully developed spin and then you'll spin any other type without a care in the world.
p.s. good idea to check the airframe logbook before doing any spinning in a T'Hawk, just to make sure the tailfin mods are up to date.
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I've spun many 150's and 152's over the years, including inverted and from 12000 feet down to 4000 feet. (Not to be recommended by the way, young and foolish, I was). Never had a problem. Properly done, it's really a non issue. There was a recent accident where a 150 went in after a deliberate spin. While the report is not out yet, it seems likely the simply started the spin too low or delayed the recovery too long. Tragic and unneccessary. But the most likely way to get hurt while spinning a 150.
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Vetflyer, sorry for the delay. I wasn't ignoring your question, I've been pre occupied !
Thanks MikeJ for pretty much highlighting the problem. I was referring, in particular, to the U.S.F. experience with the type, although there has been a disproportionate number of accidents in the U.K., including a friend of mine who was killed in one whilst doing advanced training as part of an instructors course, near Oxford.
The Americans had a similar experience to us with the type which had been selected as a trainer for the U.S.A.F. The type was then fully re-evaluated by them resulting in the reinstatement of the aircraft, as they were unable to replicate the problem. When they started losing more pilots, they got fed up and pulled the T67 completely. Read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingsby_T-67_Firefly
Thanks MikeJ for pretty much highlighting the problem. I was referring, in particular, to the U.S.F. experience with the type, although there has been a disproportionate number of accidents in the U.K., including a friend of mine who was killed in one whilst doing advanced training as part of an instructors course, near Oxford.
The Americans had a similar experience to us with the type which had been selected as a trainer for the U.S.A.F. The type was then fully re-evaluated by them resulting in the reinstatement of the aircraft, as they were unable to replicate the problem. When they started losing more pilots, they got fed up and pulled the T67 completely. Read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingsby_T-67_Firefly
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a4fly no problem and thanks MikeJ for reply.
I have spun the T67 before and was planning to do it in future . So was interested to be aware of any problems .. thought USAF problems were pilot related?
Does anyone have any links to the AAIB or CAA reports?
As been stated DEFTS spin them alot.
Also if the engine did stop ..... would that prevent recovery from a spin ?
many thanks
I have spun the T67 before and was planning to do it in future . So was interested to be aware of any problems .. thought USAF problems were pilot related?
Does anyone have any links to the AAIB or CAA reports?
As been stated DEFTS spin them alot.
Also if the engine did stop ..... would that prevent recovery from a spin ?
many thanks
Last edited by vetflyer; 25th Mar 2007 at 22:58.
