Bad Weather Circuits
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Bad Weather Circuits
Hello,
I have my PPL Skills test coming up and have totally forgotten how to do a bad weather circuit.
Can anyone explain it to me again to jog my memory, will this be asked in the test?
Many Thanks
I have my PPL Skills test coming up and have totally forgotten how to do a bad weather circuit.
Can anyone explain it to me again to jog my memory, will this be asked in the test?
Many Thanks
Join Date: May 2001
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Simply, the object of a bad weather circuit is to enable you to remain visual with the landing runway whilst completing a circuit to land. The assumption is that either the cloudbase is low or the the inflight viz is poor or both.
Therefore the circuit will be flown much lower than usual and you will maintain a position far closer to the active than usual. You must not enter IMC and in "real" conditions will be adjusting what you do to avoid doing so. In reality how low and how close you keep the circuit will depend on the conditions on the day and how comfortable you are with the aircraft. When and where you take flaps, undecarriage etc will also vary depending on you and the aircraft but the circuit will happen a very great deal quicker, the turns will involve considerably more bank and final will be very short.
I doubt you will be asked to demonstrate a bad weather circuit but you never know. If you are, 600 feet would be a sensible circuit height, unless told otherwise, setting up for crosswind over the numbers (unless the runway is very long), keeping the runway within your wing downwind and turning base to keep final as short as possible. Dont forget to ask ATC if you can fly a low level circuit (it is for them to grant) or if AG make sure everyone else knows what you are doing.
Therefore the circuit will be flown much lower than usual and you will maintain a position far closer to the active than usual. You must not enter IMC and in "real" conditions will be adjusting what you do to avoid doing so. In reality how low and how close you keep the circuit will depend on the conditions on the day and how comfortable you are with the aircraft. When and where you take flaps, undecarriage etc will also vary depending on you and the aircraft but the circuit will happen a very great deal quicker, the turns will involve considerably more bank and final will be very short.
I doubt you will be asked to demonstrate a bad weather circuit but you never know. If you are, 600 feet would be a sensible circuit height, unless told otherwise, setting up for crosswind over the numbers (unless the runway is very long), keeping the runway within your wing downwind and turning base to keep final as short as possible. Dont forget to ask ATC if you can fly a low level circuit (it is for them to grant) or if AG make sure everyone else knows what you are doing.
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Here is a thought..... Why is the bad weather circuit on the PPL skill test when a PPL flying in the type of conditions that would need a bad weather circuit is flying beyond the limits of the licence. Should it not be taught as part of the IMC?
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totally forgotten how to do a bad weather circuit.
Probably shouldn't be there in the first place as weather mimima would prevent the test being conducted on such a day.
Basic tips:
1.Stay visual
2.Don't hit anything
3.If you are a PPL without IMC or IR learn from the experience and either get an instrument qualification or avoid grotty wx.
SB
Probably shouldn't be there in the first place as weather mimima would prevent the test being conducted on such a day.
Basic tips:
1.Stay visual
2.Don't hit anything
3.If you are a PPL without IMC or IR learn from the experience and either get an instrument qualification or avoid grotty wx.
SB
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Here is a thought..... Why is the bad weather circuit on the PPL skill test when a PPL flying in the type of conditions that would need a bad weather circuit is flying beyond the limits of the licence.
You're right, of course, but we train for all sorts of situations that we never want to run into, and I guess that's the point here ...
FF
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I was trying to think of circumstances where the bad weather circuit is useful with the implicit assumption that you are not IR rated.
If you fly enough there are going to be occasions where the weather at your destination is beginning to worsen. So perhaps one scenario is staying below an overcast knowing you have a good escape route behind, but with the bad weather circuit enabling you to get to your destination. Another is with coastal strips. I can recall a few trips to Maypole when the Ha was coming in off the estuary and normal finals would have put me well and truly in the soup.
All that said you are often better not flying the whole circuit. If you are "sneeking" in under a low cloud base and competent enough to be doing so, then a join straight into downwind or even on one of the base legs is often more attractive - a sort of abbreviated bad weather circuit I suppose.
Of course some will say it is a recipe to get you into jail and some out of jail!
Finally, always remember when I had just learnt to fly - my then meantor, suggested on one particular day we have a look at the weather and see if a short fly in the local area was possible. Cloudbase looked horrible to me and I wouldnt have contemplated aviating. Up we went, and it was horrible in all directions. My meantor with IR, ATPL, ex RAF the full works wasnt going to fly on instruments that day. He was straight into a low level circuit, reamaining VMC of course the whole time, and back into land. Scarred me to death at the time, but just run of the mill for him
.
If you fly enough there are going to be occasions where the weather at your destination is beginning to worsen. So perhaps one scenario is staying below an overcast knowing you have a good escape route behind, but with the bad weather circuit enabling you to get to your destination. Another is with coastal strips. I can recall a few trips to Maypole when the Ha was coming in off the estuary and normal finals would have put me well and truly in the soup.
All that said you are often better not flying the whole circuit. If you are "sneeking" in under a low cloud base and competent enough to be doing so, then a join straight into downwind or even on one of the base legs is often more attractive - a sort of abbreviated bad weather circuit I suppose.
Of course some will say it is a recipe to get you into jail and some out of jail!
Finally, always remember when I had just learnt to fly - my then meantor, suggested on one particular day we have a look at the weather and see if a short fly in the local area was possible. Cloudbase looked horrible to me and I wouldnt have contemplated aviating. Up we went, and it was horrible in all directions. My meantor with IR, ATPL, ex RAF the full works wasnt going to fly on instruments that day. He was straight into a low level circuit, reamaining VMC of course the whole time, and back into land. Scarred me to death at the time, but just run of the mill for him
.
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FF, It was a devils advocate question not a reason to get into a fight.
It just occured to me that a bad weather circuit is flown at about 500 feet. So if your PPL without IMC has remained VFR, clear of cloud he has to have been flying VERY low to have remained clear of cloud and need a bad weather circuit. Rule 5 then comes into mind as well.
Getting caught out in that way shows very bad preflight planning? We are talking about the basic VFR PPL holder here not an IMC pilot prepared to accept poor minima.
Thoughts?
It just occured to me that a bad weather circuit is flown at about 500 feet. So if your PPL without IMC has remained VFR, clear of cloud he has to have been flying VERY low to have remained clear of cloud and need a bad weather circuit. Rule 5 then comes into mind as well.
Getting caught out in that way shows very bad preflight planning? We are talking about the basic VFR PPL holder here not an IMC pilot prepared to accept poor minima.
Thoughts?
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Mad to suggest bad weather circuits shouldn't be taught. The other thing which should be taught, but isn't, is precautionary landing with power. Might be a very useful skill one day, because sh*t happens, as we all know. It's much better to be prepared to make a precautionary landing than to be so terrified at the thought that you press on into even worse weather.
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I think precautionary landings with power which I assume you mean off- airfield (otherwise it would just be a normal landing) will never be taught in this nanny state of ours for the same reason that actual spins disappeared from the PPL syllabus: The potential for serious sh*t happening during the event outweighs the potential risk of spinning in the first place. Hence spin awareness only is taught.
The exact parallel to a precaurionary landing with power would equate to a kind of PFL, but maintaining power to a very low level.
Then the Rule 5 brigade hiding in the hedgerows would shop you.
Safe flying
Cusco
The exact parallel to a precaurionary landing with power would equate to a kind of PFL, but maintaining power to a very low level.
Then the Rule 5 brigade hiding in the hedgerows would shop you.
Safe flying
Cusco
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Mad to suggest bad weather circuits shouldn't be taught. The other thing which should be taught, but isn't, is precautionary landing with power. Might be a very useful skill one day, because sh*t happens, as we all know. It's much better to be prepared to make a precautionary landing than to be so terrified at the thought that you press on into even worse weather.
Not suggesting in anyway that it should not be taught just asking for comments on why it is taught. It just strikes me that teaching people to do bad weather circuits might encourage the less disciplined to think of it as a reason to push on?
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Most of the country is covered in perfectly reasonable airstrips for spamcans in the form of pastureland. No point overflying perfectly usable landing areas in your mission to meet destiny in the form of a rock-filled cloud.
The less-disciplined will always find a way to fly into mishap, but that is not an argument not to teach useful procedures. In WW1 they thought parachutes, as we know, would encourage pilots to leave perfectly good aircraft.
The less-disciplined will always find a way to fly into mishap, but that is not an argument not to teach useful procedures. In WW1 they thought parachutes, as we know, would encourage pilots to leave perfectly good aircraft.
Last edited by QDMQDMQDM; 19th Mar 2007 at 13:29.
QDM,
agree with your suggestion about precautionary landings being part of the PPL training, and if common sense prevailed we would be able to use unlicensed farmstrips for this practice, rather than just a field. but we know the common stuff will never prevail, and we will not be allowed to practice this potentially life saving skill.
getting back to the original post, one of the best lessons i ever had was a bad weather circuit in snow, with the CFI in the RHS. the short final was at 45 deg to the numbers, with a low turn over the hedge to line up. had to do one in good viz for my test, the examiner just told me where he wanted me to turn, and how high to fly it.
agree with your suggestion about precautionary landings being part of the PPL training, and if common sense prevailed we would be able to use unlicensed farmstrips for this practice, rather than just a field. but we know the common stuff will never prevail, and we will not be allowed to practice this potentially life saving skill.
getting back to the original post, one of the best lessons i ever had was a bad weather circuit in snow, with the CFI in the RHS. the short final was at 45 deg to the numbers, with a low turn over the hedge to line up. had to do one in good viz for my test, the examiner just told me where he wanted me to turn, and how high to fly it.
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I fly from a controlled field, where we have a VFR training circuit at 500 feet (with a very displaced threshold) and the regular circuit is at 1000 and 1500 feet, depending on the arrival route. All three circuits are very tight (downwind to final is one 20/30 deg turn, no base being flown as such) due to noise considerations. Obviously there are no obstacles that violate rule 5 on the training circuit... Having done a lot of these 500 feet circuits really helps if you get caught by the weather. Particularly the day the ATIS reported 1200 few, 1500 overcast, but in reality it was 800 broken. Tail between the legs, low level circuit and back to the coffee... I wrote that one down as "character building" in my logbook.
As others have said, remain in VMC, fly a tight circuit keeping the runway in sight at all times, and be prepared for the fact that everything happens much faster. I try to get as much done on downwind as I can, only needing the last stage of flaps to lose the last five knots or so to Vref on final. Days like that, the circuit is never busy so if you fly it a little slower (2 stage flaps, 70 knots on downwind) than normal, you're not holding up anyone else anyway.
As for the precautionary landing - we did a mock one on my PPL course. You don't actually have to *land* on precautionary landing training. The most important aspect is that you overfly and inspect the potential landing area from an increasingly lower altitude for increasingly smaller obstacles:
- First pass at 500 feet or so to look for power lines, trees and such
- Second pass at 100 feet or so to look for cattle and such
- Third pass at 20 feet or so to look for stones, ruts and such
All these passes are done (in a PA-28) with 1-2 stage flaps and 70-75 knots or so. A speed which is high enough above the stall to allow 30 deg turns, but slow enough that you've got time for the inspection.
- The fourth pass is a landing. We didn't do this, despite the fact that we did the whole sequence at an (uncontrolled) airfield. But you can train the same thing above a farmers field as long as you don't violate rule 5.
Between passes you climb to a sensible altitude, but not necessarily a regular circuit altitude. After all - one of the reasons for a precautionary landing is inclement weather and no suitable diversion close by. Thus, you might not have the luxury of having a normal circuit altitude below the cloudbase.
Best approach, as far as I'm concerned, it just to learn how to be flexible with your circuits. Learn how to do them at 500 feet, learn how to do them at 1500 feet (with a kamikaze turn from downwind to final without gaining speed), learn how to do them fast (90 knots or more) and slow (70 knots or less), tight (500 meter or less from the runway centerline) and wide (where the base leg is longer than downwind. Take a look at the EHTX summer weekend approach procedures for an example). Learn how to do an orbit on downwind for separation with a 737 on final. Learn how to do direct base or direct final entries. Learn to fly the whole circuit with 2 stage flaps, at the bottom or even the wrong side of the power curve, and learn how to do flapless landings and short-field landings. Learn how to approach and hold off with the power on, floating above the runway just above the stall speed, in ground effect, with a crosswind, in case the tower asks you to "expedite vacating, traffic is a 737 on short final behind you" and the first (high speed) exit is still a kilometer away. With all these tricks in your arsenal you should be able to adjust your circuit safely to all sorts of conditions, regardless of whether they are weather-related, traffic-related or otherwise.
And mind the classical turn-to-final stall... Even in inclement weather, it's better to throw away the approach if you're likely to get into the stall there, than to press on and stall/spin in a situation where you have no height to recover.
As others have said, remain in VMC, fly a tight circuit keeping the runway in sight at all times, and be prepared for the fact that everything happens much faster. I try to get as much done on downwind as I can, only needing the last stage of flaps to lose the last five knots or so to Vref on final. Days like that, the circuit is never busy so if you fly it a little slower (2 stage flaps, 70 knots on downwind) than normal, you're not holding up anyone else anyway.
As for the precautionary landing - we did a mock one on my PPL course. You don't actually have to *land* on precautionary landing training. The most important aspect is that you overfly and inspect the potential landing area from an increasingly lower altitude for increasingly smaller obstacles:
- First pass at 500 feet or so to look for power lines, trees and such
- Second pass at 100 feet or so to look for cattle and such
- Third pass at 20 feet or so to look for stones, ruts and such
All these passes are done (in a PA-28) with 1-2 stage flaps and 70-75 knots or so. A speed which is high enough above the stall to allow 30 deg turns, but slow enough that you've got time for the inspection.
- The fourth pass is a landing. We didn't do this, despite the fact that we did the whole sequence at an (uncontrolled) airfield. But you can train the same thing above a farmers field as long as you don't violate rule 5.
Between passes you climb to a sensible altitude, but not necessarily a regular circuit altitude. After all - one of the reasons for a precautionary landing is inclement weather and no suitable diversion close by. Thus, you might not have the luxury of having a normal circuit altitude below the cloudbase.
Best approach, as far as I'm concerned, it just to learn how to be flexible with your circuits. Learn how to do them at 500 feet, learn how to do them at 1500 feet (with a kamikaze turn from downwind to final without gaining speed), learn how to do them fast (90 knots or more) and slow (70 knots or less), tight (500 meter or less from the runway centerline) and wide (where the base leg is longer than downwind. Take a look at the EHTX summer weekend approach procedures for an example). Learn how to do an orbit on downwind for separation with a 737 on final. Learn how to do direct base or direct final entries. Learn to fly the whole circuit with 2 stage flaps, at the bottom or even the wrong side of the power curve, and learn how to do flapless landings and short-field landings. Learn how to approach and hold off with the power on, floating above the runway just above the stall speed, in ground effect, with a crosswind, in case the tower asks you to "expedite vacating, traffic is a 737 on short final behind you" and the first (high speed) exit is still a kilometer away. With all these tricks in your arsenal you should be able to adjust your circuit safely to all sorts of conditions, regardless of whether they are weather-related, traffic-related or otherwise.
And mind the classical turn-to-final stall... Even in inclement weather, it's better to throw away the approach if you're likely to get into the stall there, than to press on and stall/spin in a situation where you have no height to recover.
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I find the best method of teaching pilots to be comfortable with short circuits is to teach them one minute touch and goes until it becomes second nature.
Remember this is not brain surgery we are talking about.
Remember this is not brain surgery we are talking about.
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Not really something that should be 'practised' on an internet forum, even if it is as highly regarded as PPRUNE.
Go and fly with an instructor, get him/her to refresh your memory and then do a few. It might just save your life one day.
Go and fly with an instructor, get him/her to refresh your memory and then do a few. It might just save your life one day.
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Like any other physical hands feet skill repetition is the best way to burn any activity into your memory bank.
I find that the shorter the circuit the more circuits one can do in a given time frame.
The only real drawback is finding a suitable training area to do short circuits.
Sea planes are a natural for oval short circuits.
And of course best taught outside the PPL lessons.
C.E.
I find that the shorter the circuit the more circuits one can do in a given time frame.
The only real drawback is finding a suitable training area to do short circuits.
Sea planes are a natural for oval short circuits.
And of course best taught outside the PPL lessons.
C.E.