Mode S
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: the moon
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mode S
Could some1 give me a brief idea of what the discussions on Mode S transponders is about and why G.A opposes them?
I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.
Thanks
I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.
Thanks
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cambridge UK
Age: 47
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm just a humble PPL student so don't shoot me if this is bo*****s.
I'm sure other's will correct me and/or elaborate but I think the argument goes like this:
Commercial traffic fitted with TCAS would like to know the altitude of GA traffic for collision avoidance - and currently they can't if your aircraft is only fitted with a mode A transponder. This is what the aircraft I am learning to fly on is fitted with and my instructor has it turned to standby to avoid alarming the airliners passing overhead at a much higher altitude. I think they want GA aircraft to be fitted with altitude reporting mode S transponders.
I think GA's argument against them is that it is very costly to buy a mode S transponder and that it is unfair to expect GA to pay for it.
I'm sure other's will correct me and/or elaborate but I think the argument goes like this:
Commercial traffic fitted with TCAS would like to know the altitude of GA traffic for collision avoidance - and currently they can't if your aircraft is only fitted with a mode A transponder. This is what the aircraft I am learning to fly on is fitted with and my instructor has it turned to standby to avoid alarming the airliners passing overhead at a much higher altitude. I think they want GA aircraft to be fitted with altitude reporting mode S transponders.
I think GA's argument against them is that it is very costly to buy a mode S transponder and that it is unfair to expect GA to pay for it.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Witney
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mode S in a nutshell
a) will cost a lot, especially in relative terms for "low cost" private pilots both initially and annually
b) will not reduce the risks of GA/GA midair collisions
c) will enable heavy commercial traffic to use shortcuts outside controlled airspace and save money
d) will enable unmanned aerial vehicles to be flown in class G airspace to do whatever UAV's do and make money
e) will avoid the CAA having to turn the whole of the UK into controlled airspace (according to the CAA)
There are a lot of sub-clauses to the above basics
So the GA fraternity (including microlights, gliders & hang gliders) are each being invited to cough up several grand for installation of mode S, plus several hundred per year licence & calibration costs in order to facilitate airlines and UAV operators to make more money.
You could look at the CAA website and other ModeS threads on PPrune for much greater detail
a) will cost a lot, especially in relative terms for "low cost" private pilots both initially and annually
b) will not reduce the risks of GA/GA midair collisions
c) will enable heavy commercial traffic to use shortcuts outside controlled airspace and save money
d) will enable unmanned aerial vehicles to be flown in class G airspace to do whatever UAV's do and make money
e) will avoid the CAA having to turn the whole of the UK into controlled airspace (according to the CAA)
There are a lot of sub-clauses to the above basics
So the GA fraternity (including microlights, gliders & hang gliders) are each being invited to cough up several grand for installation of mode S, plus several hundred per year licence & calibration costs in order to facilitate airlines and UAV operators to make more money.
You could look at the CAA website and other ModeS threads on PPrune for much greater detail
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: EGDN
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with everything Sedbergh said. Also, it will be able to decode all sorts of things about you and your aircraft, so that NATS can start to levy navigation charges on you and the CAA will be able to find you more easily when they want to prosecute you.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by A330 Dreamer
Could some1 give me a brief idea of what the discussions on Mode S transponders is about and why G.A opposes them?
I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.
Thanks
I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.
Thanks
Conspiracy theories should be in JetBlast, surely
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, despite the apparently genuine original question, this subject arouses so much passion among pilot forum inhabitants that few people are going to post yet again and start yet another long thread...
But let me say just one thing
Also, it will be able to decode all sorts of things about you and your aircraft, so that NATS can start to levy navigation charges
the above is b0110cks. The radar coverage doesn't exist to enable transponder returns to be used for any kind of enroute billing.
Route based billing would in any case be a total nightmare to implement since flight plans are not mandatory for intra-UK VFR and that is just the beginning of what would have to be put in, at a cost which would be far too enormous to ever be recovered from UK GA activity. So let's not do this particular piece of b011ocks all over again... please!
The Elementary Mode S return is a 24-bit number which can be decoded into the tail number e.g. G-ABCD. Apart from the Mode C altitude info, that is all that ATC are going to get from your Mode S transponder.
IF we do, one day, get VFR enroute charges (as I believe they have in Canada) it's likely to be a flat quarterly/annual charge per aircraft, say £50 per qtr or whatever.
But let me say just one thing
Also, it will be able to decode all sorts of things about you and your aircraft, so that NATS can start to levy navigation charges
the above is b0110cks. The radar coverage doesn't exist to enable transponder returns to be used for any kind of enroute billing.
Route based billing would in any case be a total nightmare to implement since flight plans are not mandatory for intra-UK VFR and that is just the beginning of what would have to be put in, at a cost which would be far too enormous to ever be recovered from UK GA activity. So let's not do this particular piece of b011ocks all over again... please!
The Elementary Mode S return is a 24-bit number which can be decoded into the tail number e.g. G-ABCD. Apart from the Mode C altitude info, that is all that ATC are going to get from your Mode S transponder.
IF we do, one day, get VFR enroute charges (as I believe they have in Canada) it's likely to be a flat quarterly/annual charge per aircraft, say £50 per qtr or whatever.
Guest
Posts: n/a
My understanding is that what an ATCO sees on the scren is the same for Mode C as it will be for un-enhanced Mode S.
So for the average a/c owner bimbling around in the FIR, he or she will have paid o be compliant but gain very little.
Sir George Cayley
So for the average a/c owner bimbling around in the FIR, he or she will have paid o be compliant but gain very little.
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The benefit of S over C is selective interrogation, so that when the day comes (31/3/2008) that everything is squawking the system copes.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rustle
If everything was squawking there would be issues on a radar display.
The benefit of S over C is selective interrogation, so that when the day comes (31/3/2008) that everything is squawking the system copes.
The benefit of S over C is selective interrogation, so that when the day comes (31/3/2008) that everything is squawking the system copes.
It is also why replacing a perfectly good Mode C with a Mode S is so annoying. And even more annoyingly the dis-information and emotion have people who are equipped for mode A only not spending the extra couple of 100 quid to have mode C, and people with mode C not using it! - all taking away a proven effective system of reducing collision risk and creating some quite scary near misses.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ...back of the drag curve
Age: 61
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is also b0ll0x:
IF the CAA want to prosecute you (obviously with a good reason), they have to go about it with due regard to the law in the UK. Having a Mode S Txpdr will only let them find the aircraft....
More:
Would love to find out your source for that gem of onformation...
If parachuting in the open FIR, there is a dedicated squawk, 0033 which tells everyone on radar that you are dropping paras, why on earth would parachutists need a txpdr as well? As I personally know the person who deals with parachuting at the CAA, I can assure you that even he wouldnt come out with such guff.
Amazes me how some people on this forum spout the first thing they hear at the flying club bar as if its true
Mode S is a way to allow the passage of commercial traffic in the open FIR, without new CAS being established. Nav charges etc is just a by product. The GA fraternity in the UK must fight this, as I heard from a very reliable source that a certain person in DAP/AUS at the CAA has said it will happen, no matter what the UK GA community want.
CAA will be able to find you more easily when they want to prosecute you.
More:
there was some talk today of a clown at CAA wanting parachuters to wear a mode s txponder.......
If parachuting in the open FIR, there is a dedicated squawk, 0033 which tells everyone on radar that you are dropping paras, why on earth would parachutists need a txpdr as well? As I personally know the person who deals with parachuting at the CAA, I can assure you that even he wouldnt come out with such guff.
Amazes me how some people on this forum spout the first thing they hear at the flying club bar as if its true
Mode S is a way to allow the passage of commercial traffic in the open FIR, without new CAS being established. Nav charges etc is just a by product. The GA fraternity in the UK must fight this, as I heard from a very reliable source that a certain person in DAP/AUS at the CAA has said it will happen, no matter what the UK GA community want.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Groan ... I hate this subject ... It keeps coming around again and again. I don't like the idea, the aurguments for mode S don't stack up, but it looks like a done deal. The whole thing leaves me totally depressed as once again it looks like big business has the government in its pocket and the common man looses more of his freedom. Chip, chip, chip ...
SS
I hate this subject ... It keeps coming around again and again. I don't like the idea, the aurguments for mode S don't stack up, but it looks like a done deal. The whole thing leaves me totally depressed as once again it looks like big business has the government in its pocket and the common man looses more of his freedom. Chip, chip, chip ... SS
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SE England
Age: 70
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding is that parachutists were the one group that the CAA were going to exempt from Mode S (after a fair bit of discussion).
There was also a proposal that aircraft that stayed in a circuit and never 'conflicted' with other aerial vehicles would also not need to have Mode S.
But, the CAA originally were of the opinion that all aerial vehicles would have to be Mode S equipped - gliders, paramotors, hang-gliders, microlights, gyroplanes, sport & recreational aircraft etc etc
There was also a proposal that aircraft that stayed in a circuit and never 'conflicted' with other aerial vehicles would also not need to have Mode S.
But, the CAA originally were of the opinion that all aerial vehicles would have to be Mode S equipped - gliders, paramotors, hang-gliders, microlights, gyroplanes, sport & recreational aircraft etc etc
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure Mode S is a done deal for all of VFR. I don't believe the CAA wants to ground a big chunk of UK VFR GA and therefore I don't think they will (at the last hour) push it through and make people install the transponders and install batteries, etc. That's a significant technical issue - even if on Permit planes it can be done "DIY".
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mode S is not a done deal for all VFR flight. It is a question of how big the exceptions are or what height you can fly without needing one (6000 ft?) in the open FIR and what part mode c will play.
Still no word on a date for the 2nd consultation…
Rod1
Still no word on a date for the 2nd consultation…
Rod1
