Tail Dragger Conversion
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: Somerset, UK
Tail Dragger Conversion
I have recently bought into a tail dragger group (Condor). Up until now I have only ever flown normal tricycle type aircraft (Piper PA28, Cessnas).
I have booked with a qualified instructor to do a tail dragger conversion - he reckons 4 to 5 hours.
As a holder of a JAR-PPL for SEP (Land) is there anyhting LEGALLY to stop me just jumping in and going for a flight (NOT that I intend to - I'm stupid but not THAT stupid) - just wondered what the legal position is.
Also what would the insurance position be?? and finally does the conversion have to be done by a qualified insructor or could it be done with any PPL who has already got his/her conversion?
No doubt all the answers can be found in the depths of some CAA publication but I cannot find anything relevant in my searches.
Cheers.
I have booked with a qualified instructor to do a tail dragger conversion - he reckons 4 to 5 hours.
As a holder of a JAR-PPL for SEP (Land) is there anyhting LEGALLY to stop me just jumping in and going for a flight (NOT that I intend to - I'm stupid but not THAT stupid) - just wondered what the legal position is.
Also what would the insurance position be?? and finally does the conversion have to be done by a qualified insructor or could it be done with any PPL who has already got his/her conversion?
No doubt all the answers can be found in the depths of some CAA publication but I cannot find anything relevant in my searches.
Cheers.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: England
Not entirely certain, but doesn't this come under "Differences training"? I would certainly expect it to. Certainly far less significant difference like constant speed prop and retractable undercarriage require such training.
From memory, I think tailwheel was not included in the original draft of differences training requirements, prompting an very experienced instructor friend of mine to contact the CAA to voice his disgruntlement!!
From memory, I think tailwheel was not included in the original draft of differences training requirements, prompting an very experienced instructor friend of mine to contact the CAA to voice his disgruntlement!!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
From: Earth
No, I don't believe there is nothing that can LEGALLY stop you jumping in and going for a flight.
However, your fellow group members might be a little chavved off when you bent it on landing/takeoff. Also, it is unlikely that the insurance company would cough up when they discovered your lack of tailwheel experience.
A tailwheel conversion takes as little as 3 hours.
I suggest you keep sitting in it making engine noises until you've been checked out
However, your fellow group members might be a little chavved off when you bent it on landing/takeoff. Also, it is unlikely that the insurance company would cough up when they discovered your lack of tailwheel experience.
A tailwheel conversion takes as little as 3 hours.
I suggest you keep sitting in it making engine noises until you've been checked out
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
From: Not a million miles from EGTF
SSD is right.
Practically, there is nothing to stop you, but the law is clear - you need differences training and a sign-off by an instructor (I assume the instructor needs to be suitably qualified too, but...?)
If you have bought a share and try to fly it without such a rating, you will become highly unpopular. Most groups (as mine has) have rules that clearly state you need to adhere to the legal and group rules - and flying a tailwheel aircraft without the necessary sign-off will invalidate the insurance.
If the CAA don't get you, the other members will
Practically, there is nothing to stop you, but the law is clear - you need differences training and a sign-off by an instructor (I assume the instructor needs to be suitably qualified too, but...?)
If you have bought a share and try to fly it without such a rating, you will become highly unpopular. Most groups (as mine has) have rules that clearly state you need to adhere to the legal and group rules - and flying a tailwheel aircraft without the necessary sign-off will invalidate the insurance.
If the CAA don't get you, the other members will
.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I am pretty sure that the 5hrs is now a requirement not a recommendation. In the old days it was just sufficient training to achieve the standard. When I did mine it was an hour of circuits. I will have to dig out the guidance notes.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Unless there are rule changes I have not seen, there is no minimum time for differences, in fact my understanding is an instructor can even sign differences off with a briefing - I think the only one this might be half sensible for is retracts, even then best to do a few circuits. With the right ability it is possible to cover tailwheel conversion in an hour or less but 5 hours is realistic for most people, especially if you cover all the bits that should be in this:- three pointers, wheelers, crosswind.
Last edited by foxmoth; 24th February 2007 at 13:00.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Foxmoth
Please explain wheelers? I would have hated to have missed out on these!
I did a tailwheel conversion last Sept. Insurance company required 15 take-offs & landings, not touch & go's prior to solo flight. Other limitations were put in place until 25 hours on type.
Please explain wheelers? I would have hated to have missed out on these!
I did a tailwheel conversion last Sept. Insurance company required 15 take-offs & landings, not touch & go's prior to solo flight. Other limitations were put in place until 25 hours on type.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Wheelers are touching down mainwheels only in a level attitude, you then hold the tail up until you run out of forward stick. Wheelers are particularly useful in gusty conditions and many tailwheel pilots prefer them for crosswinds as it keeps the rudder in the slipstream until the tail finally drops at a very low speed. IMHO anyone converting to tailwheel should at least learn this technique even if you choose not to use it (I will not sign a tailwheel endorsement off without it).
n.b. Touch and goes will normally be acceptable for TO & Ldgs - or had they specified that tis was not OK?
n.b. Touch and goes will normally be acceptable for TO & Ldgs - or had they specified that tis was not OK?
Last edited by foxmoth; 24th February 2007 at 13:02.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Chox
In answer to your original question, JAR–FCL 1.215 Class ratings (A) states:-
LASORS Appendix E to Section F gives guidance on differences training.
No minimum times are specified.
Mike
In answer to your original question, JAR–FCL 1.215 Class ratings (A) states:-
[(1) Class ratings for aeroplanes will be issued according with the associated administrative procedures accepted by the JAA. In order to change to another type or variant of the aeroplane within one class rating, differences or familiarisation training is required.];
No minimum times are specified.
Mike
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 504
Likes: 0
From: South Yorkshire
When I bought share in a taildragger, the insurer set their own criteria for the experience required to fly the aicraft solo. I forget how many taildragger hours they wanted, but I didn't have them, so they specified I had to do 15 landings in the aircraft with an qualified instructor.
Have you seen your Insurance Policy? If not, you should see it before you fly the aircraft to make sure you are aware of all its provisions.
good luck - its a great feeling to have mastered the dreaded taildragger!
tp
Have you seen your Insurance Policy? If not, you should see it before you fly the aircraft to make sure you are aware of all its provisions.
good luck - its a great feeling to have mastered the dreaded taildragger!
tp
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: SE England
Foxmoth
I've got around 300 tailwheel hours and was never taught or used the 'wheeler' technique. I've landed safely in strong cross-winds in a variety of tailwheel aircraft using the fully held-off/wing-down method and fail to see what benefit the wheeler has.
My real problem is taxying, and, for that, landing technique is irrelevant
I've got around 300 tailwheel hours and was never taught or used the 'wheeler' technique. I've landed safely in strong cross-winds in a variety of tailwheel aircraft using the fully held-off/wing-down method and fail to see what benefit the wheeler has.
My real problem is taxying, and, for that, landing technique is irrelevant
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
Foxmoth
Tks for explanation - didn't do any. Fly level, stick back......hope for the best
Not quite. Wheel it on in a level attitude (or vey slightly tail-low), then slight forward stick to 'hold' it on as the mains touch the ground (not enough to raise the tail above the fuselage-horizonatl position). As the speed bleeds off, more forward stick is required to maintain the level tail-up attitude. In the Chippy, with about 30 knts down the strip, you can come to a stop with the tail up, whereupon despite full forward stick it will gently lower the tail to the ground.
Even if you don't need to do one, they are great fun!
SSD
Tks for explanation - didn't do any. Fly level, stick back......hope for the best
Not quite. Wheel it on in a level attitude (or vey slightly tail-low), then slight forward stick to 'hold' it on as the mains touch the ground (not enough to raise the tail above the fuselage-horizonatl position). As the speed bleeds off, more forward stick is required to maintain the level tail-up attitude. In the Chippy, with about 30 knts down the strip, you can come to a stop with the tail up, whereupon despite full forward stick it will gently lower the tail to the ground.
Even if you don't need to do one, they are great fun!
SSD
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 367
Likes: 1
From: South West UK
Lucy,
If you were never taught to do wheelers and have never done them it's not too surprising that you fail to see the benefit. Foxmoth is spot on; wheeler landings are a very valuable technique and I believe they are a required part of a t/w pilot's repitoire (I won't sign off difference training without doing wheelers). They are much more comfortable in a strong X wind on some types and will alow you to land in crosswinds which would be impossible (or at least unwise) for a three pointer. remember, "taildraggers" is used as a blanket term but they don't all fly (and land) the same so it's important to have a detailed understanding of what works best on any particular type before you fly it. What types do you fly?
Some of the characteristics an aeroplane exibits during taxying and during landing can be similar so I'd suggest that a full understanding of the possibilities and requirements of how to land your aeroplane might be relevant to taxying too!
3 Point (and wheeler too when required!!)
If you were never taught to do wheelers and have never done them it's not too surprising that you fail to see the benefit. Foxmoth is spot on; wheeler landings are a very valuable technique and I believe they are a required part of a t/w pilot's repitoire (I won't sign off difference training without doing wheelers). They are much more comfortable in a strong X wind on some types and will alow you to land in crosswinds which would be impossible (or at least unwise) for a three pointer. remember, "taildraggers" is used as a blanket term but they don't all fly (and land) the same so it's important to have a detailed understanding of what works best on any particular type before you fly it. What types do you fly?
Some of the characteristics an aeroplane exibits during taxying and during landing can be similar so I'd suggest that a full understanding of the possibilities and requirements of how to land your aeroplane might be relevant to taxying too!
3 Point (and wheeler too when required!!)
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
GK430, If you have not done wheelers I suggest you learn how with someone that knows WIHIH, idealy an instructor.
In addition to xwind landings, wheelers are useful in gusty conditions because you have a bit more speed and control up to touchdown.
In addition to xwind landings, wheelers are useful in gusty conditions because you have a bit more speed and control up to touchdown.
