Tight Turns
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,401
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Few, if any of you, have mentioned one of the more essential requirements during steep turns....
I'll give you a clue. It starts with LOOK and ends with OUT.
The CAA's Standards Document 19 advises the following:
Steep turns (360° left and right - 45° bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive
Steep Turn.
• Demonstrate the correct lookout technique before, during and after turns
• Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed
• Co-ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45° bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees
• Co-ordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level flight as directed by the Examiner without loss/gain of height
Spiral Dive.
• Recognise the manoeuvre and initiate prompt and correct recovery action
• Continue recovery action without exceeding any aeroplane limitations
• Recover with minimum height loss
• Complete all necessary checks and drills
All I want to see on a PPL Skill Test is a SAFELY FLOWN steep turn at 45 deg AoB. 'Limits' are very much of secondary importance; the pilot who stares at the AH trying to maintain 45 deg AoB is likely to fail if he doesn't LOOKOUT! But the pilot who allows the height or bank angle to wander slightly, whilst LOOKING OUT probably won't!
I'll give you a clue. It starts with LOOK and ends with OUT.
The CAA's Standards Document 19 advises the following:
Steep turns (360° left and right - 45° bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive
Steep Turn.
• Demonstrate the correct lookout technique before, during and after turns
• Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed
• Co-ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45° bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees
• Co-ordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level flight as directed by the Examiner without loss/gain of height
Spiral Dive.
• Recognise the manoeuvre and initiate prompt and correct recovery action
• Continue recovery action without exceeding any aeroplane limitations
• Recover with minimum height loss
• Complete all necessary checks and drills
All I want to see on a PPL Skill Test is a SAFELY FLOWN steep turn at 45 deg AoB. 'Limits' are very much of secondary importance; the pilot who stares at the AH trying to maintain 45 deg AoB is likely to fail if he doesn't LOOKOUT! But the pilot who allows the height or bank angle to wander slightly, whilst LOOKING OUT probably won't!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 431
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From: Up there somewhere
Beagle, it's that old L-A-I 
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I used to lose about 100-200 feet on entry to left hand steep turns (45-60 deg) but ones to the right were fine. I think if you concentrate on attitude then it all comes together. I was looking into/though the turn to early before setting up the right picture for the turn. A-L-A-P-A-L-A-P
Joined: Jan 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 899
Likes: 42
From: Slowly decaying (disgracefully)
Lookout - Attitude - Instruments is the littany, repeated continuously.
Remember that the VSI tells you what's about to happen whereas the ALT tells you what has already happened.
If descending, maintain back pressure and decrease bank. The nose will rise, when it's where you think it should be: roll in again and use more back pressure.
If climbing, slightly overbank and maintain back pressure. The nose will fall, when it's where you think it should be: roll bank to desired bank angle and adjust back pressure.
Examiner will specify bank angle. Limit bank to 60 degrees unless you have/use a g meter and know the structural limit.
HFD
Remember that the VSI tells you what's about to happen whereas the ALT tells you what has already happened.
If descending, maintain back pressure and decrease bank. The nose will rise, when it's where you think it should be: roll in again and use more back pressure.
If climbing, slightly overbank and maintain back pressure. The nose will fall, when it's where you think it should be: roll bank to desired bank angle and adjust back pressure.
Examiner will specify bank angle. Limit bank to 60 degrees unless you have/use a g meter and know the structural limit.
HFD
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flik Roll
Beagle, it's that old L-A-I
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.
Easy solution to that then is to cover it up and do it on partial panel.
Originally Posted by Flik Roll
Beagle, it's that old L-A-I
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.
Easy solution to that then is to cover it up and do it on partial panel.
It was good though, I was doing the steep turns by visual reference (forget the AI), and stalling by using the wing tips. He even made me come back into the circuit and land with no instruments, just feeling the aeroplane. He was pleased, and I was pleased because I passed
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,401
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
HFD - your description of controlling height is correct for MRTs, but it should be possible to maintain the correct altitude at 60 deg bank by pitch attitude selection alone.
englishal, any Examiner denying you the use of the slip ball should be given a good kick, in my opinion!
englishal, any Examiner denying you the use of the slip ball should be given a good kick, in my opinion!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Here's a curveball. Do you have an armrest on the left side? If so, are you resting your arm on it in a left turn? If you are, it's unlikely you'll be able to do the same in a right turn so it will be less accurate.
Keep practising and don't rule out using both hands on the yoke.
Keep practising and don't rule out using both hands on the yoke.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: Up there somewhere
If you can fly by datums (attitude) it is very rewarding as you lose a load of old habits such as trying to chase speed/height unnecessarily and your flying suddenly becomes cleaner and more accurate.
This thread has highlighted the fact that many people may be taught to fly datums initially, then develop the habit of flying on instruments and it's not picked up on by instructors or even the student who can't figure out why their flying isn't as accurate.
Something to think about....
Could you fly accurately e.g. turn in the circuit, fly finals/final approach in the event that you had a total instrument failure? Could you pick out the say correct visual picture for say, 70kts with land flap comapred to 75kts with TO flap on the finals turn without stalling/dutch rolling?
EDIT: Forgot to add:
Not really dutch roll in an SEP, more of a roll susbisdence feedback (or so I was corrected by my geeky engineer of a friend....
)
FR
This thread has highlighted the fact that many people may be taught to fly datums initially, then develop the habit of flying on instruments and it's not picked up on by instructors or even the student who can't figure out why their flying isn't as accurate.
Something to think about....
Could you fly accurately e.g. turn in the circuit, fly finals/final approach in the event that you had a total instrument failure? Could you pick out the say correct visual picture for say, 70kts with land flap comapred to 75kts with TO flap on the finals turn without stalling/dutch rolling?
EDIT: Forgot to add:
Not really dutch roll in an SEP, more of a roll susbisdence feedback (or so I was corrected by my geeky engineer of a friend....
)FR
Last edited by Flik Roll; 2nd February 2007 at 14:23.
Joined: Jan 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 899
Likes: 42
From: Slowly decaying (disgracefully)
BEagle:
- agreed, I was discussing how to correct if the attitude is incorrectly selected/held.
HFD
your description of controlling height is correct for MRTs, but it should be possible to maintain the correct altitude at 60 deg bank by pitch attitude selection alone.
HFD
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
Yep have to confess I was guilty of looking too much at the instruments in the intial CPL training. I had previously done my IR and had to force myself to look back outside again.
My instructor used to thump my leg and make buzzing noises - it became like Pavlovs dog where he could just make a buzz and watch you jump
Needless to say I got over the habit and the lookout returned....
On my CPL test the cross check with instruments was emphasised and not a purely out of the window maneouvre although you were watched to ensure that a majority of your time was outside as it was a crosscheck and not done soley by. Hitting the wake got you extra points
J.
My instructor used to thump my leg and make buzzing noises - it became like Pavlovs dog where he could just make a buzz and watch you jump
Needless to say I got over the habit and the lookout returned....
On my CPL test the cross check with instruments was emphasised and not a purely out of the window maneouvre although you were watched to ensure that a majority of your time was outside as it was a crosscheck and not done soley by. Hitting the wake got you extra points
J.
