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Tight Turns

Old 30th Jan 2007, 16:19
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Tight Turns

I recently completed, successfully, my six-monthly club dual check. Everything was fine, although, within myself, I wasn't particularly happy with my tight turns to the right. Never have been. Tight turns to the left are no problem, indeed, I even hit my own buffett on sunday, but to the right the nose and pressure on the yolk seems to be up and down like a whores drawers. My question is two-fold. Does anyone else have problems with tight turns in a particular direction, and what is the point in them anyway. Is it to practise taking evasive action ?
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 16:22
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Dunno the proper reason why but how about mate in right hand seat wants to take pictures of top of house doing a left hand one wouldn't be much help. I dont have any difficulty with them however the yoke pressure does change a lot more than on a left hand one. I think its just one of those practie makes perfect or close to.
David
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 16:31
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Prop reaction and change of view.

Just practice them!
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 17:59
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Just elaborating on the 'picture out the front' in side by side seater aircraft.

From the left seat, in a left hand turn, you will be sitting on the low side.
In a right hand turn, you will be sitting up high, and the attitude will be substantially different.

In such aircraft, it can help for a taped line to extend on the top of the cowl, from directly in front of your seat, going straight ahead. It helps to visualise the 'straight ahead' picture instead of using the spinner as a mid reference.

I hope this makes sense.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 18:09
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Why!!!!!!

Why not!! They are great fun, whats the point of S&L flight? If the wingtips, nose or tail are not pointing straight at the ground frankly you are wasting money.

Seriously though it teaches co-ordination skills and is also used for the collision avoidance maneuver. (and its great fun and the first steps towards areobatics).

Practise practise practise and you will be able to do them without looking at the instruments.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 18:27
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Put the ball in the middle!

When you apply power in the turn, the aircraft yaws left. In the left turn it helps you, in the right turn it makes it more difficult so use the rudder to balance the aircraft.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 20:08
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Originally Posted by SoCal App View Post
3) Rolls into a coordinated 360 degree turns and maintains a 45 degree bank
Is it 45 degree steep turns that are generally tested?
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 20:23
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SoCal

I can assure you that an FAA checkride is to a substantially higher standard than a UK CAA one.

I've got both PPLs, standalone, and the FAA one was harder, even though I already had a few hundred hours by then.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 20:50
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The glider pilots at my club all agree that nearly everyone has a "natural" turn direction, and we split about 80% left, 20% right (no apparent connection with right- or left-handedness). Almost all gliders are flown from the centre line, so that's not the reason.

I became ambi-circular by practice (this is worthwhile in gliders as if you share a thermal you need to circle in the same direction as the other gliders for obvious reasons!).

However, some days I start a flight circlng better one way than the other, except nowadays it's not consistent which way. After half an hour or so, it seems to even out.

Around 1/3 of a glider flight is usually spent circling, so we get a fair amount of practice at it, in my case usually between 30 and 45 degrees angle of bank. In a weak thermal, any inaccuracy can put you on the ground, so accurate flying is at a premium - thus the awareness of this phenomenon and the practice to fix it.

I've very little time in power, but in my few flights (some from side-by-side aircraft) never had a problem circlng in either direction, though always by visual reference and feel - to me, the instruments are too coarse for accurate flying unless you have to rely on them in IMC.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 21:16
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well, I'm used to - and practice occasionally - the FAA standard, i.e. 60 degs. Here's a simple way of doing this in a 172 (all models):

DO NOT TRY THIS THE FIRST TIME WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR IN THE LS !!


From level flight, roll into a 30 deg bank. Now, apply one full deflection of nose-up trim. By 'one full deflection' I mean you grip the wheel at the top and rotate it to the bottom in on go - no further.

Next, roll into 60 degs. While doing so (actually towards the end of the roll-in), repeat the above trim change, if necessary 1 1/2 times or twice - this depends on the a/c, weight, etc.

Next, apply light (repeat - light!) pressure on the rudder in direction of turn to keep ball centered. Unfold newspaper (your choice) and start reading calmly. A/c will perform steep turn within +/- 50 feet (if you trimmed it right, the VSI will not move at all)). Once approaching desired heading, roll out, leading with opposite trim, as you will be well nose-up.

Great fun and actually very helpful (at bank angles of less than 60 degs, less trim) if you don't have an autopilot or GPS and need to sort out your position via VOR triangulation or just want to stay at a given height and sort out something in the a/c w/o touching the controls.
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Old 30th Jan 2007, 21:27
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ProfChrisReed, '80% left 20 % right'

Its great to hear the left preference again. In the war fighter pilots used to bank on the guy in front breaking left more than half the time. I guess its down to the fact its easier to push the stick to the left rather than pull it to the right.
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 08:49
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On the back of the my JAA PPL Skills test pass sheet it has 45 degrees on it.
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 12:36
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Requirement for PPL skills test is a minimum of 45 dgrees angle of bank (see CAA doc 19). I was taught to do them at 60 degrees (good fun, especially if you can hit your wake!)

If you are flying a piper, use the hinge line going down the nose. This is a great 'gun sight' for lining stuff up in turns, landing etc etc. In a steep turn aim to nail a point of the nose with the horizon.

Roll into the turn, coordinate with rudder, once past 30 dges, add some power, pitch up, add more bank until the required aob is reached. If you are loosing height, roll off a little aieleron, pittch up, roll back back on. It is very difficult to regain attitude with that much aieleron on. If climbing, slightly relax back pressure / add more aob. Don't exceed 60 degrees.

That's what I was taught anyway!
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 12:48
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Originally Posted by BigAl's View Post
Roll into the turn, coordinate with rudder, once past 30 dges, add some power, pitch up, add more bank until the required aob is reached. If you are loosing height, roll off a little aieleron, pittch up, roll back back on. It is very difficult to regain attitude with that much aieleron on. If climbing, slightly relax back pressure / add more aob. Don't exceed 60 degrees.

That's what I was taught anyway!
I've been doing these (in a warrior) for the last 2 weeks - and that's exactly what I've been taught too
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 14:20
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I too agree with Big Al. Exactly the way I was taught, but I was far less comfortable doing left hand steep turns, mainly I think because I tended to look down the wing rather than out the front, and I felt as if I could "fall", although I was maintaining height well enough. It took me a long time to overcome that natural turn of my head to the left.
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 15:37
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I use 60 deg for steep turns-its not steep otherwise!

I do however struggle to turn right neater than left due to me having a useless left arm and being right handed,obviously with having my right hand on the throttle my left doesn't have the strength/control to be neat.
When using a stick,I have no such probs-yokes are [email protected]
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 16:08
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Fly using visual attitudes - it works wonders. Keep the datum attitude and apply the required back pressure to keep the datum where it should be. Also, make sure you roll the nose round to the right, keeping the datum. A lot of people have tendencies to have issues with pulling not rolling to the direction that they don't sit in. (In your case the right).
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 16:38
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Originally Posted by SoCal App View Post

So, folks going off doing 60 degree turns is fine but don't do it in the test as it would result in a certain failure.
Yeah, in FAA land.... Like I say, CAA stipulates a MINIMUM 45 Degree aob. So Tiggermoth is quite right, if you do your turns at nothing less than 45degrees, that's a pass in a JAA skills test!
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 17:23
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Do NOT trim elevator during the turn.

Just be strong, set the attitude, and pull as required.
Monitor your attitude, apply power as required to maintain speed, and refence the other instruments in between your cycles of lookout and attitude.

Then when it's time to roll out, you will still be trimmed correctly for S&L.

Do NOT apply elevator trim in the turn.
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Old 31st Jan 2007, 18:37
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Originally Posted by SoCal App View Post
BigAl,

That's fine - but its hardly a skills test then if there is no measurement of accuracy involved. i.e. just lean it over and do any angle you want as long as it's at least 45 degrees. The examiner has no clue as to what you are aiming for and if it wanders from 45->50->60 degrees during the turn that is hardly an indication of being in control..
I agree with IO540, the FAA are more stringent in their tolerances.

btw - anybody else having a problem in replying to a post and not getting the option to quote?
SoCal APP, Yep, you are quite right FAA tolerences are tighter, but last time I looked I didn't make CAA policy. I'll make a note in the diary to pop over to the states to learn to fly.

I am just telling it how it is here in the UK, which I believe has the most relevance to the original thread.. and yes the quote function doesn't work for me either, pressed 'reply' to get this.
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