Special VFR

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by Mariner9

And just to clarify matters regarding the night rating, if you dont have a night rating, you can't excersise the priviledges of your plain vanilla ppl at night either with or without pax.

Thanks, just found it in Sched 8. Obviously changed somewhere way back along the line.

[London Mil]

Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar

This could be misleading. Separation is never provided between straight VFRs as could be implied above. Both would have to be under SVFR for this to apply.

Of course, you are right.

[englishal]

Lets say the cloud base is only 1800ft on the day. I can't depart under VFR as I can't maintain all the separation. To make matters interesting lets also so the viz is only 4.5km.

Isn't there a "below 3000'" bit, which if I recall correctly is "clear of cloud" or words to that affect?

I have flown SVFR in two different scenarios:-

1) Flying to the channel islands. Actually although it is SVFR it is no different from VFR, except you'll be given clearance limits (E.g. not above 2000', heading 180 etc....)

2) Flying in the USA where SVFR means something totally different - i.e. flight in conditions sub VFR, e.g. 1 statute mile vis.....

[dublinpilot]

Isn't there a "below 3000'" bit, which if I recall correctly is "clear of cloud" or words to that affect?

Not in class C airspace.

[Toadpool]

Originally Posted by IO540

in which case ATC should not issue an SVFR clearance if the met vis is below 3000m .

Not so. A CPL (no IR) holder can, I believe, accept a SVFR clearance with a min vis of 1800m. Therefore ATC can not issue a SVFR clearance with a vis of less than 1800m, or a cloud base of less than 600'. ATC are not aware of what licence/ratings a pilot has and are not permitted to ask.
Also VMC minima vary according to the class of airspace, e.g. in the UK min vis of 5km in class D, 1500m in class G.

[IO540]

Isn't this fun, for a horrid day like today (gusts of 60kt)

A CPL (no IR) holder can, I believe, accept a SVFR clearance with a min vis of 1800m

Good point, but quite narrow. I suspect the way this works is this: The old CAA CPL (or the old CAA ATPL for that matter) gives you an honorary IMC Rating, which needs 1800m min vis for any VMC. A JAA CPL/ATPL doesn't give you the honorary IMCR.

[Toadpool]

Originally Posted by IO540

The old CAA CPL (or the old CAA ATPL for that matter) gives you an honorary IMC Rating, which needs 1800m min vis for any VMC.

What better way to spend your day, sat in front of a computer with a gale howling around you .
I don't know about the new JAA licencing, but VMC in controlled airspace, where allowed,(B,C,D,E) requires a minimum flight vis of 5km. A Pilots licencing requirements may increase this, but they certainly cannot reduce it. Therefore a vis of less than 5km in these airspaces = IMC, and IFR or SVFR clearances are required.
A pilot can ask for a SVFR clearance at any time, but the minima, even for an ATPL/IR are, I believe, 1800m vis/600' cloudbase.
Having said that, should you ask for SVFR on a gin clear CAVOK day, you may get a very short reply .
The crazy thing, at least in the UK, is that a plain PPL can fly VFR in most class D airspace with a flight vis of at least 5km. But for SVFR in the same airspace a minimum vis of 10km is required .

[IO540]

Having said that, should you ask for SVFR on a gin clear CAVOK day, you may get a very short reply

That's why I think the whole subject is best ignored, except for Heathrow transit or going to Jersey etc.

Outside the UK, ATC are generally much more accomodating when it comes to enroute VFR in Class [anything but A] so it is even more moot.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by Toadpool

The crazy thing, at least in the UK, is that a plain PPL can fly VFR in most class D airspace with a flight vis of at least 5km. But for SVFR in the same airspace a minimum vis of 10km is required .

Yep. Crazy. A bonus of 5Km and the ATCO has to provide separation. One sure way of unnecessarily clogging up a CTR. Anybody know when the London CTR due to go Class C?

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by IO540

The visibility requirement is one thing. Under VFR, a UK (or any JAA, AFAIK) plain PPL can fly "VFR" down to 3000m. A non-JAA ICAO (e.g. FAA) PPL can potentially fly "VFR" down to 1500m. (The ICAO definition of VMC is 1500m). An IR or IMCR holder can fly "VFR" down to the ICAO VMC figure of 1500m.

There's little point in quoting these licence privilege minima, which apply outside controlled airspace, when SVFR is available only within controlled airspace. The minimum visibility for VFR within controlled airspace is 5000 m. Less than that, and it's SVFR or IFR.

Under SVFR, the plain PPL has to be 10000m+, unless he has an IR or IMCR in which case he has to be 3000m+. I don't know if the visibility is that observed by the pilot (in which case it is obviously unenforceable except in the most gross breach, like OVC002) or if they are as issued by ATC (in which case ATC should not issue an SVFR clearance if the met vis is below 3000m; ATC usually assume the pilot has the max privileges).

SVFR clearances are available to everyone, and are regularly used by ATPLs and IR holders who cannot or don't want to comply with IFR (e.g. if the aircraft isn't equipped for IFR). Thus ATC should issue SVFR clearances, where appropriate, in visibilities down to the SVFR minimum (usually 1500 m) without regard to any licence-priivilege legislation.

Dublinpilot - no PPL anywhere can fly sub VMC, under the ICAO definition of VMC of 1500m. I did say "VMC", not "VFR" I don't believe that CAA or JAA have redefined VMC; what I think they have done is they have defined VFR as 3000m or whatever. Very confusing.

No VMC is defined as "weather permitting flight in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules". The definition goes hand in hand with the minima for VFR flight, as nationally defined. ICAO does not define VMC as 1500 m, or any other specific value. There are circumstances in which a UK PPL without IMCR/IR can fly in "sub VMC" conditions, as the licence-privilege limitation of 3000 m outside controlled airspace minimum vis differs from the VFR minimum, which can be 5000 m or higher. Such cases tend to be contrived, though.

The old CAA CPL (or the old CAA ATPL for that matter) gives you an honorary IMC Rating, which needs 1800m min vis for any VMC.

No, the UK CA CPL gives you the privileges of an IMC rating but does not impose the 1800 m minimum visibility for take-off and landing, nor the 3000 m minimum for SVFR.

[IO540]

Thank you for the corrections, bookworm. The trouble is (to borrow a phrase one tends to only use exactly once) you don't come here often enough

[Flap40]

Not mentioned above is the fact that Royal flights change class D zones to Class A for a peroid of time around their arrival/departure during which SVFR will apply.

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

Isn't it intresting when you go back and revise your flying theory, not with the sole purpose of passing exams, but as a pilot with some experience and revisit the issues as to how they do or might affect you how it throws a different perspective on things?

Thanks for all your input - a very convoluted topic but at least I am now clear how it may impact me in my circumstances and that was the prupose of the original thread so thanks to all for an interesting "debate".

[PompeyPaul]

Originally Posted by Mariner9

And just to clarify matters regarding the night rating, if you dont have a night rating, you can't excersise the priviledges of your plain vanilla ppl at night either with or without pax.

I was under that impression, but with NR then all is good. This thread suggests, no it's not all good, you still need to request SVFR ?

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by PompeyPaul

I was under that impression, but with NR then all is good. This thread suggests, no it's not all good, you still need to request SVFR ?

NO - the two are mutually exclusive.

Don't confuse Licence / Rating limitations with Flight Rules.

[Slopey]

A quick query as to Night flying from reading the above to and fros...

I hold a Night Rating on my PPL(A), and I was up flying in the late after noon a week or so ago, but landed back before the start of official night. On my rejoin back in to Aberdeen, ATC advised me that I was still VFR.

Presumably, once official night kicks in, I'm now IFR in Class D (the Aberdeen zone)?

If that's the case - should I be up there? LASORs page 56 2.d:

He shall not -

as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplanes);

Ok - no problem there - I've got the night rating.... but....2.f:

unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances that require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;

Eeek - so if it's now dark, and I'm in Class D, in IFR - Night rating or not, unless I have an IR or IMC - I am in the doo doo?

Or would it be the case that at night in Class D - I should request SVFR?

Or am I getting needlessly confused?

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by Slopey

Or would it be the case that at night in Class D - I should request SVFR?

Yes - though if you departed VFR (during the day) the chances are ATC wil. give you a SVFR clearance anyway. Returning via a VRP on a standard, notified, day VFR type rejoin tends to make us do that too.

[Slopey]

Ok, so then if I depart after official night - when I book out I should be asking for an SVFR clearance also, or would it be IFR? And as I'll be under IFR I'd have to request engine start as I'm in Class D?
Hmm, time to dig out the instructor's phone number!

[dublinpilot]

Slopey,

You have already answered your own question when you quote :

unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances that require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;

unless you have an IMC or IR, then you cannot fly IFR in class D airspace. You can not request an IFR clearance because you can't accept it!

You can't fly VFR at night, so what are you left with? All you're left with is either don't fly, or request a Special VFR clearance.

As for the startup request, I've never heard an official view on it....seems to be down to local procedures as far as I can see. If at an ATC airport where I'm not familiar with local procedures in this regard, and there's no note about it in the AIP entry, I would request startup.

dp

[EvilKitty]

Originally Posted by Slopey

Ok, so then if I depart after official night - when I book out I should be asking for an SVFR clearance also, or would it be IFR? And as I'll be under IFR I'd have to request engine start as I'm in Class D?
Hmm, time to dig out the instructor's phone number!

Nope, you're under SVFR. Unless you want to be under IFR in which case you need an IMCR or IR and you are then no longer need SVFR just because its dark.

To all intents and purposes, inside of controlled airspace you are SVFR in IMC, and outside controlled airspace you are VFR in IMC, where IMC means its dark. As a non IMCR/IR PPL you are held to the VMC minima as modified by your licence at all times (which is why you can't have SVFR in cloud). Of course the CAA go and complicate things by saying you cannot be VFR at night since you can't actually see anything (due to it being dark), hence you're IFR. Except that its not IFR because be IFR you need a IMCR/IR. Hence the night qualification and all the confusion that abounds at this time of year...

At least thats my take on it