Helping out new PPLs
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Dublin
Interesting S&Rman.
I'd say if you've done something a few times, and are comfortable with it and understand your subject matter, then you can be a mentor to someone has never done it.
If you've gone to LeTouquet a few times, then you can certainly help out someone who's nervous about doing it for the first time.
If you've flown further afiled a far bit, then you have help out someone who hasn't.
If you've done a lot of IFR flying, then you can help out someone who hasn't.
It's not about number of hours, or overall knowledge. It's about having experience at a particular part of aviation, and being willing to share it with someone who want's to learn.
You can be a newbie in one area of aviation, and a mentor in another
IO540 - If you're looking to pass on some of your knowledge, to those your local club can't complain about, I'd love to take up the opportunity! I reckon you'd make a great 'teacher' (I'm reluctant to use the word instructor ).
dp
I'd say if you've done something a few times, and are comfortable with it and understand your subject matter, then you can be a mentor to someone has never done it.
If you've gone to LeTouquet a few times, then you can certainly help out someone who's nervous about doing it for the first time.
If you've flown further afiled a far bit, then you have help out someone who hasn't.
If you've done a lot of IFR flying, then you can help out someone who hasn't.
It's not about number of hours, or overall knowledge. It's about having experience at a particular part of aviation, and being willing to share it with someone who want's to learn.
You can be a newbie in one area of aviation, and a mentor in another
IO540 - If you're looking to pass on some of your knowledge, to those your local club can't complain about, I'd love to take up the opportunity! I reckon you'd make a great 'teacher' (I'm reluctant to use the word instructor
).dp
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,966
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From: Norfolk
Interesting stuff. My "friend" was invited to accompany a newbie PPL(H) to Le2K recently. She's a CPL(H) but insisted that I also come along as despite being a lowly PPL, I 've 15 times her hours and have done Europe 15 times more than she has.
It worked well for all concerned, I saw more of rotary ops and they gained in paperwork procedures (GAR and flight plan) and Mark I eyeball nav and traffic alerting.
I've flown quite a few on here aerobatically - but I'd rather know the person first and then decide if I want to offer a trip. A-B stuff is pretty dull for me in the Pitts and despite spending some dosh, the radio/intercom/noise-cx h/sets really are not conducive to long chats about technique/critique.
However, in principle, I applaud the concept.
It worked well for all concerned, I saw more of rotary ops and they gained in paperwork procedures (GAR and flight plan) and Mark I eyeball nav and traffic alerting.
I've flown quite a few on here aerobatically - but I'd rather know the person first and then decide if I want to offer a trip. A-B stuff is pretty dull for me in the Pitts and despite spending some dosh, the radio/intercom/noise-cx h/sets really are not conducive to long chats about technique/critique.
However, in principle, I applaud the concept.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 381
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From: UK
I agree with the attitude of 'some' flying schools. I did my PPL in USA and come back and got checked out on their aeroplanes. The instructor was fine. However the school have turned their noses a little at the fact that i won't join the club as a member and that i haven't dont my PPL with them.
Thing is this has a knock on effect when i come to choose a school to do my CPL with.
Thing is this has a knock on effect when i come to choose a school to do my CPL with.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Actually it was not you I was referring to! But if the cap fits then feel free to wear it! But do tell me why I stopped renewing my membership at your place? I seem to recall it being nothing more than not getting a reminder and forgetting about it.....
Allthough there is a point, I have missed the emails!!
Allthough there is a point, I have missed the emails!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
To get an FI rating one needs to pass the JAA CPL exams. Unless (AIUI) one is going to instruct for free, and then you will be "really popular" in the vicinity, among the schools who have to pay their instructors.
It's no wonder that few if any experienced PPLs do this kind of thing, except very informally on a prearranged 1-1 basis.
It's no wonder that few if any experienced PPLs do this kind of thing, except very informally on a prearranged 1-1 basis.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 178
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From: uk
And if he did offer to instruct for nothing he'd be ripped to shreds for devaluing instructio so its a bit of a pointless post don't you think?
you two obviously have issues with each other and here isn't the place to air them, PM each other and sort it out in private?
you two obviously have issues with each other and here isn't the place to air them, PM each other and sort it out in private?
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 412
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From: essex
Can a non-CPL "instructor", working for free, fly a trial lesson punter who is (obviously) paying the establishment for the flight?
What do you think I0540 ?
If they can then the rules are a joke, I think that you will find that if the instructor is not renumerated then it is OK but we all know the FTO is gaining commercial profit so it is a commercial flight regardless
My guess - CAA do not check and clubs don't care because they are quids in
Ethically it is unsound IMHO
What do you think I0540 ?
If they can then the rules are a joke, I think that you will find that if the instructor is not renumerated then it is OK but we all know the FTO is gaining commercial profit so it is a commercial flight regardless
My guess - CAA do not check and clubs don't care because they are quids in
Ethically it is unsound IMHO
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
if the instructor is not renumerated then it is OK but we all know the FTO is gaining commercial profit so it is a commercial flight regardless
That is a contradictory statement. I think this would be illegal because it is aerial work even if the pilot isn't getting paid.
Are flying schools really using unpaid PPLs to take up trial lessons? That would be pretty amazing.
Back on the subject of this thread, isn't it amazing how quickly any suggestion along those lines gets bogged down in problems (real as I am sure they are) with objections from flying schools.
It's no wonder nothing ever improves in this business. They will still be teaching compass & stopwatch navigation in 2106, and the schools will be fully behind it.
That is a contradictory statement. I think this would be illegal because it is aerial work even if the pilot isn't getting paid.
Are flying schools really using unpaid PPLs to take up trial lessons? That would be pretty amazing.
Back on the subject of this thread, isn't it amazing how quickly any suggestion along those lines gets bogged down in problems (real as I am sure they are) with objections from flying schools.
It's no wonder nothing ever improves in this business. They will still be teaching compass & stopwatch navigation in 2106, and the schools will be fully behind it.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
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From: U.K.
No chance. A "trial lesson" is actually Excercise 3 of the PPL syllabus. The air experience flight, this is a loggable flight and therefore must be flown by an FI or FI(R)
A PPL non-FI may most certainly not fly this, whether the school is paid or not is irrelevant.
If anyone knows of any schools doing this, then get onto the CAA pronto with any evidence you may have. This is totally unacceptable and illegal.
A PPL non-FI may most certainly not fly this, whether the school is paid or not is irrelevant.
If anyone knows of any schools doing this, then get onto the CAA pronto with any evidence you may have. This is totally unacceptable and illegal.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
SAS the question was about a PPL INSTRUCTOR doing the flight and the answer is yes they can as you rightly point out it is lesson 3.
Be careful about being so indignant about following the rules. The vast majority of trial lessons are joy rides and never go onto learn to fly. They are steady source of income for flying schools and keep aircraft in the air that real students and regulars benefit from.
Be careful about being so indignant about following the rules. The vast majority of trial lessons are joy rides and never go onto learn to fly. They are steady source of income for flying schools and keep aircraft in the air that real students and regulars benefit from.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
Bose, there is nothing laid down as to what ex.3 should contain. It is simply a flight to see if people are interested in learning. Why people buy them is not our concern, we are providers of training, if people don't take it up for whatever reason that is not within our control.
They are "joyrides" in the fact they are a lot of fun, but they aren't pleasure flights, they are a lesson that is loggable.
Unless of course we start vetting people beforehand for both aptitude and financial reasons... I don't think anyone would be very pleased about that!
I always brief properly, explain what it's all about and hopefully the trial lesson customer goes away with a much greater knowledge of aviation than they arrived with. That is a lesson, not a simple pleasure flight.
They are "joyrides" in the fact they are a lot of fun, but they aren't pleasure flights, they are a lesson that is loggable.
Unless of course we start vetting people beforehand for both aptitude and financial reasons... I don't think anyone would be very pleased about that!
I always brief properly, explain what it's all about and hopefully the trial lesson customer goes away with a much greater knowledge of aviation than they arrived with. That is a lesson, not a simple pleasure flight.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
yes of course.... You keep on kidding yourself....
Bose, there is nothing laid down as to what ex.3 should contain. It is simply a flight to see if people are interested in learning. Why people buy them is not our concern, we are providers of training, if people don't take it up for whatever reason that is not within our control.
They are "joyrides" in the fact they are a lot of fun, but they aren't pleasure flights, they are a lesson that is loggable.
Unless of course we start vetting people beforehand for both aptitude and financial reasons... I don't think anyone would be very pleased about that!
I always brief properly, explain what it's all about and hopefully the trial lesson customer goes away with a much greater knowledge of aviation than they arrived with. That is a lesson, not a simple pleasure flight.
They are "joyrides" in the fact they are a lot of fun, but they aren't pleasure flights, they are a lesson that is loggable.
Unless of course we start vetting people beforehand for both aptitude and financial reasons... I don't think anyone would be very pleased about that!
I always brief properly, explain what it's all about and hopefully the trial lesson customer goes away with a much greater knowledge of aviation than they arrived with. That is a lesson, not a simple pleasure flight.