Helping out new PPLs

[IO540]

This has been discussed here many times.

One reason why most new PPL holders chuck in it right away is because they don't feel confident to go anywhere outside the local area, and they soon get fed up with that.

It would be good if somebody who flies regularly was able to take these people up and show them it really isn't hard to go places. I am including flight planning in this, of course.

The problem, at any airfield where there is a flying school, is that you will get your tyres cut if you go up (knowingly, or inadvertently) with one of their students - either pre-PPL or somebody with a PPL who may be doing a night or IMC Rating. Schools tend to really dislike the idea of "their" customers going up with another pilot. At best, the person's instructor doesn't like somebody "interfering" with his way of doing things; at worst the school wants the (often a bit skint) student to spend all his money with them and not supporting somebody else's PPL Cost Sharing Scheme.

If anybody is taking people up, how do they resolve this?

[rustle]

Originally Posted by IO540

The problem, at any airfield where there is a flying school, is that you will get your tyres cut if you go up (knowingly, or inadvertently) with one of their students - either pre-PPL or somebody with a PPL who may be doing a night or IMC Rating. Schools tend to really dislike the idea of "their" customers going up with another pilot.

That's twice this week you have made reference to tyre cutting at your flying club.

If it is that much of a ****hole why don't you relocate? I have never heard of anything like that from anyone else.

Blackbushe has 2 schools and an independent club (i.e. not affiliated with either school) which organises all that sort of stuff. In the carpark you will find all sorts of nice motors. I have never heard of tyre slashing there.

[cessna l plate]

I have to say that this isn't my experience. When I was learning at Liverpool it was positively encouraged to go up with other ppl's. If a spare seat was available it was always, why don't you go in the back, and take a map with you.

This has helped a lot when I came to learning to navigate the other week, although I took 4 trips to nail the subject, it could have been a lot more, and 6 hours to nail nav isn't bad at all, and I attribute most of that to sitting in the back with a map! If you get the opportunity, do it!!!

It also demonstrated to me that going places isn't that hard, and is one of the major benefits to flying in the first place. Staying in the local area kind of defeats the purpose of getting the ppl in the first place.

[aluminium persuader]

I'm more than happy to fly as "safety pilot" with anyone. East Anglia-based, pm me if you want.

ap

[Rod1]

At all the airfields I have been based at the students have been actively encouraged to go up with qualified PPL’s. I am very surprised at your tyre cutting comment, and I would be on my way if there was any hint of such a problem.

I once took a PPL student on a week’s tour of France totalling over 18 hours flying time, which helped her navigation no end and certainly convinced her you could go places. Her instructor was actively grateful and knocked some cash off my next IMC renewal for what he considered to be all the help.

You must be based at a very odd flying club.

Rod1

[S-Works]

IO540's description may be a bit extreme but has not been unheard off. My experiance has been more on the lines of being completly ostracised from the school just in case you took one or more of the "revenue lines" away. After all how can the school be making money if there students are swanning around the sky in a private owners aircraft. My old club used to send me out emails with xxx is looking for some flying cost sharing and I would respond with happy to take anyone along or go along with anyone. Those invites stopped coming out and then the invites to the fly outs stopped coming so I stopped renewing my membership. Very shortsighted of schools I think to milk the student for all they are worth and then just cast them aside when they are bored of the double slot bacon butty run.

If I had not had access to private flyers I would not have bought my own aircraft end flown as much as I have and would have become a lapsed PPL statistic. I will take anyone flying anytime and I do some pretty interesting trips, I am sure there are studes and members in these clubs that would love to go on some of these trips.

A real shame as I think the world of the guys that ran my old school and they are only 5 minutes aways from me.

[Johnm]

It is a fact that defence of revenue is always counter productive, the key to a successful market is growth, so that suppliers benefit even if their slice of the cake stays the same because the cake gets bigger.

This implies that those who encourage wider participation will generally prosper and the contrary is also true. The correlation with good general attitude to customer service merely weights the difference still further.

I can take budding or new PPLs flying in the Cambridge or Kemble areas from time to time (weather permitting) I shan't require cost share, merely a good excuse to go flying There will be the opportunity to play with Radio GPS and MK1 eyeball nav and even to give the autopilot a rest

PM if interested and we'll see what we can organise.

[S-Works]

Very valid point John. My friend has just started to learn to fly and he have taken him to my new club to learn, Who has lost out?

I extend the same offer, anyone Peterborough, Northants area give me a shout. Regular airways flights etc.

[maggioneato]

We were always encouraged to fly with qualified PPL's as a student. The CFI always tried to fill empty seats for us to gain experience. The school will gain more revenue from people who continue to fly after getting their PPL than from those who give it up once qualified.

I obviously didn't make it clear it was privately owned aircraft we were flying in, some of the aircraft had curtains. A bit of an eye opener after the somewhat scruffy club aircraft.

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by maggioneato

We were always encouraged to fly with qualified PPL's as a student. The CFI always tried to fill empty seats for us to gain experience. The school will gain more revenue from people who continue to fly after getting their PPL than from those who give it up once qualified.

That was not the point, the point was Private owners taking people flying. Of course the club is all for matching you up with other club renters it keeps you in club aircraft. But once you have bored of the double slot bacon butty runs to the same dozen airfields what do you do? A long rental of a club aircraft is VERY expensive usually paying for a minima of 3 slots in a day and availability is very limited. If you have that sort of money then you are looking towards private/syndicate ownership that gives you true flexability. A syndicate is the way to go for someone who has outgrown the club scene and private ownership is for someone who outgrows syndicates. The latter 2 options do not generate revenue for the club.

[gcolyer]

I have never seen issue in this subject either.

After I got my PPL a thousands of hours bush style pilot friend of mine came flying with me a lot. It boosted my confidence, nav skills and short field and near MAUW flying skills no end. he also took me flying a lot in really crap weather conditions to show me how bad it really has to get before you need to go IFR.

Since then I have taken a PPL student up with me on quiet a few occasions. It definiatley boosted his confidence and nav abilites as well. depending on the airspace and weather I either let him navigate or fly (from the right seat), I have not let him do both yet.

I personaly think it is a great thing to be going on.

[drauk]

I have an idea which given a spare five minutes I will put together. It will be a kind of "buddying" online website (a subpart of http://fly.dsc.net). The idea is that you can put your details on the site (confidentially assured), for example saying something like "I am based at Norwich, I fly SEP VFR and IFR and I am happy to be someone else's right hand seater, or to do a bit of ground-school mentoring" or "I am a new PPL from Southend and I'd like someone to come with me on my first trip to Le Touquet in case the horizon craps out". Hmmm, sounds like if those two got together we'd be on to a winner for all concerned.

Then other people can use the site to search for what they want, contacting one another without the original poster revealing his contact details - s/he can choose to do that when they want to.

I hadn't considered the possibility that flight schools would try and slash the tyres of the website though...

[Pianorak]

Originally Posted by bose-x

. . . A syndicate is the way to go for someone who has outgrown the club scene and private ownership is for someone who outgrows syndicates. The latter 2 options do not generate revenue for the club.

Only up to a point. There is parking (£166 pm in my case) and fuel, not forgetting the odd meal, drink or cuppa!
Happily there's no problem (so far) taking up other PPLs or studes.

Edit: Not responsible for the ads.

[Fuji Abound]

My latest trip with a training PPL (I think he had done about 8 hours) was around London, through Mig alley, over the top of Gatwick and out to the East.

I wanted to make it something he would remember, and also give him a feel for just what was possible. Three orbits over the North terminal did the trick if nonething else.

But back to the point, he was kind enough to 'phone me after the next lesson. His instuctor was genuinely astonished how much he had progressed and so was he. It renwed his enthusiam, and hopefully gave him an insight into what is possible with a PPL whilst at the same time encouraging him to go on and do other ratings.

Definitely one of those rare situations where if only the schools new it everyone benefits .

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by Pianorak

Only up to a point. There is parking (£166 pm in my case) and fuel, not forgetting the odd meal, drink or cuppa!
Happily there's no problem (so far) taking up other PPLs or studes.
Edit: Not responsible for the ads.

Depends if the club run the airfiled/hangers.......

[Julian]

AOPA US has recognised the exact same problem and has made a positive effort with its 'Project Pilot' scheme where experienced pilots adopt a newly minted PPL and hold their hands in the early days thereby giving them confidence and hopefully encouraging them to retain their PPL and not bin it.

Drauks idea sounds like a good one and I am sure would get a lot of use.

J.

[Fuji Abound]

PS - I should have said another for Drauk's suggetsion - what an excellent idea and well worth a try!

[IO540]

My tyre slashing comment should have had a smiley after it (I am aware of only one case of sabotage and that was elsewhere) but bose-x describes it correctly. What happens, given a sufficiently political airfield, is that you get slagged off all around the airfield and get problems with all sorts of things, for example hangarage. This business can be very cliquey.

Exactly like bose-x, I was made clearly unwelcome when it came to taking people up. Unless I came along on a school fly-out, sat in the back, and the school put an instructor in the RH seat, and a student in the LH seat (this became impossible once I left the G-register). Or the only passengers were people who were definitely never going to learn to fly (e.g. spouses of the pilots) but wanted to come along; then I was most welcome as a free taxi driver for the non-pilots.

Drauk's idea is excellent.

[flyingfemme]

Dare I mention the "other place"?

They have student flyouts a couple of times a year. Owners/renters adopt a stude for the day and everyone meets up for lunch, chat etc. A different venue each time. Studes are encouraged to have a go at nav, radio, enroute flying etc. Costs are not shared but landings fees and a burger are always graciously received.

Seems like everyone enjoys it.

[englishal]

Dare I mention it as well

I am on the mailing list for some place in America. Every week they are organising weekend fly-outs (Vegas, San Fransisco, Sedona, Mexico etc...) where it is planned as a group, new pilots can fly if they want or go along as passenger, normal take-away minimums are waived and the whole thing is done as a group event. That way inexperienced PPLs get to fly with experienced mentors or instructors if they want, they can take their mates and family and there are no worries about minimum flying hours. It is good experience, cost effective, and makes the place money on the rentals. There is also the safety aspect when flying over inhospitable terrain.

Events like these would interest me....so long as the destination is interesting.